Grimrock

We are walking a dangerous line with these very harsh restrictions on modding. Personally it was one of the biggest selling points for me as I love to tinker with my games.
Let's have a short walk through the past to see the power of modding.
Ghost Recon, game came out in 2001 and there are still HUGE mods being created for this game. The following games in the series removed or crippled modding and you can see how that worked for them.
Neverwinter NIghts, a mediocre main game. Once those mods started rolling this game just blew up and became HUGE! It is still modded to this day. Again the following games in the series removed or crippled modding and you can see how that worked for them.
Dice started out with BF1942 but it was the mods (most importantly Desert Combat) that really worked for them. More people played for the mods than the actual game.
Half Life, the grand daddy of games and modding. Valve may have started with one little game but it is their assistance to the modding community that has made them the giant they are today. They not only support modders more than any other company, they buy and hire modders who are above and beyond the norm. I don't think it really needs to be said that Valve isn't going anywhere soon.
These are just a few of many examples you can find and there is always one consistent theme. Games that cripple, remove, or just flat out don't allow modding come and go quickly and quietly. They piss off their customers (especially when modding is announced as a feature and then after they have your money you find out the truth) and never quite regain that trust in many of the situations.
I have never known any of these successful companies to be harmed by allowing full on modding. And it actually means that any expansion packs or DLC is of the absolute best quality because they have to set the example.
I understand that the LoG guys want to release expansions or DLC, it is obvious in the current iteration of the game that it was their intent the whole time. Who knows they may have released half the game to us with plans on releasing the other half later (although I hope that is not the case). And because they want to release more material they don't want us modding and coming up with their ideas before they may have a chance to implement them thus driving down the need for their paid for content.
But I wonder if that is worth the cost of the community opinion. Granted we are at the start here and we have a long road ahead of us. There are a group of us who are very dedicated to a small indy game that currently is kind of bland and simple but shines with potential. Will we be unlocking that potential together or are we to sit back frustrated, full of ideas and dreams, only to have them unrealized because of restrictions or bad policy.
I have faith in the game creators but there are hints and whispers that frighten me. We gamers are continuously let down and disappointed to the point where many of us are jaded or have turned to piracy to play before we pay. I have quit pre-ordering games (except for LoG) after the BF3/Origin fiasco. The lies and deception have just become too much. Community is more of an asset than a tile set, character portrait, or game code. The game may be the house we all live in but it is the community that makes it a home.

We are trying to be very open about modding. But right now LoG is not really cleanly moddable because we haven't had time to think this through when we were developing the game. Remember we only had about 10 months to develop the game so our top priority up to this point has been to get the game released. This means that many things are hardcoded in the engine and for example only a single dungeon is supported. These things need to be cleaned up.

Currently the only way to do mods is to hack and edit the grimrock.dat file directly which is a horrible kludge. For example, anytime we release a new patch the grimrock.dat file changes are all your mods to the file will be wiped out. That's one of the reasons why our modding terms don't allow this: the integrity of the game has to be maintained. Ideally mods would be separate files which can be added/removed by the user. But the support for these simply does not exist at the moment.

After the first patch has been released we can start focusing on modding. We hope to provide you better tools or at least ways to do mods without forcefully hacking them in. But it just takes some time, and we have just one programmer, so patience please

Oh I am patient. And I greatly respect what you guys do. Believe me I account for quite a few sales as I railroaded all my friends into getting the game. I even hit up a bunch of torrent sites guilting downloaders. I have faith in your product and as I said I see great potential here to have something similar to what NWN's gave us.
I am just a worry wart by nature after having been screwed over or disappointed by so many game houses and I just couldn't take it if you guys did the same. The initial restrictions seemed very limiting and it worried me.
So as one old gamer to another I was just throwing you some friendly advice. At least my very expensive education is useful for something.
Thanks for the quick reply. I can't wait to see what is in store for Grimrock Mountain!

eternal wrote:Who knows they may have released half the game to us with plans on releasing the other half later (although I hope that is not the case). And because they want to release more material they don't want us modding and coming up with their ideas before they may have a chance to implement them thus driving down the need for their paid for content.

I felt the game itself is an excellent size and seems to be pretty self contained, if it had cut off at the end of level 6 and said "To be continued!" then it would have felt like half a game!

Mods are going to be great, the game's only been out just over a week though, I'm sure our patience will be rewarded!

Daniel.

I think you have to chill out here dude. I am sure that Almost Human will try there best to get modding into the game as soon as they can, but to be fair they can't throw resources at it like some of the bigger companies out there. I really don't think it's some grand conspiracy to steal ideas from other people and maximise profits, it's just a question of time and resources.

As a software developer myself I can appreciate how tough writing a game in these times is, especially with such a small team. Things like GOGand Steam have really opened the world up again and have breathed a seriously needed breath of fresh air into the games industry. Games like Grimrock are an absolute godsend and prove that you don't have to have end game credits and budgets like a Hollywood blockbuster to make a good game.

When you are a small company like this you have to weigh up the time costs of everything you do, every feature, every button, every graphic, every sound effect. Adding in complete support for modding "up-front" may not have been feasible (or a massive time cost gamble) for Almost Human. I am sure that if someone could have donated them a couple of million dollars up front they could have got out of the box modding in their for launch. In reality I think you've got 4 or 5 passionate guys working very hard for a year on something that they will not get paid for until the game is released. Personally I think they have done a fantastic job with the game and am absolutely loving my jaunt through the dungeon.

Also don't forget that these Indie games are a fraction of the cost to purchase than the major titles, many of which are less fun and have less content in them.

With mainstream games becoming more and more cookie-cutter, I think we should applaud software developers like Almost Human for bringing back the fun and originality of games and selling them at an affordable price. I also look forward to see what is in store for modding, but am prepared to wait and see what happens.

You can have fun vigorously cropping portraits from other RPG games down to size for use with a new party for another playthrough while waiting for the editor

It's still some kind of modding, I suppose!

Telling someone to "chill out dude" isn't going to get the greatest of responses. It's derogatory and never well received.
I never said I was in a hurry to get the modding tools nor did I say they should hurry and get them to us. What I am concerned with is the restrictions they are setting on modding (even though that may turn out to be temporary). I also never said there was any grand conspiracy against the community. I threw out some potential scenarios and as I said at the end some suggestions, nothing more. I am sure you meant nothing by it but starting your reply by telling me to chill out and then misinterpreting my intentions sort of put me on edge.
You actually support my claim when you say "When you are a small company like this you have to weigh up the time costs of everything you do." The main point of my very long post was a sort of wishlist on how they move forward and how important it is to work with the community as it is the most important asset an company of this type can hold. I just had some thoughts I wanted to put down and it turned out to be looooong. I am sorry for that but I am a Communications Major/English Minor; what do you expect?

So for those who think I am way to verbose and long winded we have tl;dr = Please keep the community in mind as you progress and release modding tools/expansions/etc. They are what will continue to breath life in your creation.

eternal wrote:The game may be the house we all live in but it is the community that makes it a home.

A great sentiment and quote.

I have been part of the Dungeon Master Forum for over 12 years. We keep the game alive by building dungeons for it, and for the numerous clones that came out over the years. But that actually is now perhaps the smallest part of what happens on those forums: we talk about loads of other stuff, including a lot of personal things. The friends I've made on there have helped me through tough times. Some members even setup a true RPG to play by forum post which took two years (and equated to just a few days of real time!)

Modding support for LoG will be great when it arrives, it will help extend the life of the game and help grow the community. I'm very much looking forward to it, however long it takes.

Sorry dude I really didn't want to upset you with the "chill out" remark. Please accept my apologies. I also apologise for conspiracy angle.

The point I was trying to make was that Grimlock should not be compared to major titles and major development houses on a like for like basis. I appreciate that you may have become frightened by some of the things you have heard, but at this stage I don't think they are cause for worry. I totally agree that some of the big boys (like EA) are increasingly letting people down and not living up to promises, but I really think the work ethic for small Indie companies is much better and they should not be tarred with the same brush, even by association.

I also do not think that they have held things back just to maximise profits . Theorising (even off handedly) that they may have only released half the game is unfounded and may put some people of buying the game.

I think for the large part we are in agreement with each other. I just think we should give these guys a break and wait to see what happens.