Grimrock Detailed Mechanics Questions

[Lohengramm]

• 1. I noticed my characters don't all have the same XP amount. I noticed in another thread about Grimrock 2 someone said make sure every character hits every enemy at least once... Is that it? If I don't use my Mage to fireball some Skeleton guy he won't get any XP for the kill? How does this interact with death? Dead guys get no XP even if they hit before they died?
• 2. Protection - Does it work vs. ALL sources of damage or only melee attacks? I also noticed some people saying back row only needs Protection because they can't Evade, but what if you are being attacked from the side? Can they Evade when being attacked directly like that?
• 3. Accuracy - How often does a Mace Minotaur miss w/ 50 points in Maces? Are they at that point as accurate as a high Dex Human w/ a Sword? I mean in practical terms, of course the Human's accuracy rating will still be higher, but is the Minotaur's now high enough to trivialize their miss chances?
• 4. Assassination - Do you actually get behind enemies very often? I don't really try, the first time I've had an easy way to do so is vs. the Troll on floor 6. Has anyone had success with Assassination builds in general, and if so how? Back row so you don't need much in Evasion, then all Daggers w/ it?
• 5. Throwing vs. Bows - People say Missile Weapons are low damage and Throwing does even less damage, but wouldn't it become competitive once you could throw 2 Shurikens at the same time, both getting your weapon training bonuses? I notice I have a LOT more throwing ammo than I do Crossbow ammo on floor 6, do I eventually get much more Crossbow Ammo or Broadhead Arrows?
• 6. My Rogue runs out of missile ammo during fights (like vs. the Ogre) constantly and becomes useless. Is this less of an issue for Throwing users, or more so because they can throw 2 items at once?
• 7. Would Skulls + Daggers be secret overpowered due to a lot of damage over time from the fast attack speed?
• 8. How many skill points / what level can you fairly expect to end the game at? It seems like you would be hard pressed to get to 50 in more than one skill based on my current play through with an all Human party.

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Thanks to any who can answer these questions. I'm writing a guide on Steam once I beat the game and will include whatever information I can dig up on these topics.

[Dr.Disaster]

1) In both LoG1 and LoG 2 characters gain no XP when they are dead or petrified. Now while in LoG 2 all characters always gain the same XP for fighting monsters it's different in LoG1: there characters need to deal at least one hit during a fight to gain full XP. The amount of damage does not matter, even a hit dealing 0 damage is enough. Without a hit they gain only halved XP.

2) Protection works vs. physical damage, both melee and ranged. Unless your back row is jumped by physical attacks they have little need for Protection. All characters can Evade physical attacks according to their Evasion rating so the more the better and Evasion is easier to gain in LoG1 then in LoG2.

3) In LoG1 all weapon skills add the same amount of +damage/+accuracy so the hit/miss difference between lvl 50 Mace and lvl 50 Sword skill depends on the Dexterity stat of the characters and the weapons in use. With many maces in LoG1 having a malus to accuracy it might be wise to have some extra Dex gear at hand.

4) Most monsters can be assassinated (even one-hit-killed at lvl 50) yet it requires that you are quick in manovering. Even then some monsters are too fast to get behind them without the use of ice magic or invisibility. Since Assassination skill also adds Reach attack the rogue can be in the back row and concentrate entirely on Assassination and Dagger.

5) In LoG1 ranged weapons are way more powerfull then in LoG2 due to the learnable Volley skill. My personal experience is that a party of 4 ranged rogues (2x throwing + 2x missile) can dish out even more damage then 4 mages. There is enough ammo for bows and crossbows but you will prolly end up with more arrows then bolts because skeleton archers can drop spare arrows in LoG1.

6) This is just a matter of time. The further down you go the more ammo you will find. Also improving your weapon skills will boost your damage.

7) No.

8) When you cleared everything in LoG1 you can expect to have lvl 13 to 14 characters in the end. With 4 skill points per level-up this gives you 48..52 skill points after character creation. This means that you can at best max out 1 skill so it's wise to choose skills carefully and stick with your choices! For example it's a bad idea to pick more than 1 weapon skill or 2 magic elements.

[minmay]

2) Protection works vs. physical damage, both melee and ranged.

This is only true for monsters. For players, protection only works on melee attacks and does nothing to ranged physical attacks.

[Lohengramm]

1) In both LoG1 and LoG 2 characters gain no XP when they are dead or petrified. Now while in LoG 2 all characters always gain the same XP for fighting monsters it's different in LoG1: there characters need to deal at least one hit during a fight to gain full XP. The amount of damage does not matter, even a hit dealing 0 damage is enough. Without a hit they gain only halved XP.

That makes a lot more sense than guys not getting any XP, I would have noticed that a lot sooner, I bet.

2) Protection works vs. physical damage, both melee and ranged. Unless your back row is jumped by physical attacks they have little need for Protection. All characters can Evade physical attacks according to their Evasion rating so the more the better and Evasion is easier to gain in LoG1 then in LoG2.

3) In LoG1 all weapon skills add the same amount of +damage/+accuracy so the hit/miss difference between lvl 50 Mace and lvl 50 Sword skill depends on the Dexterity stat of the characters and the weapons in use. With many maces in LoG1 having a malus to accuracy it might be wise to have some extra Dex gear at hand.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm asking if just having 50 weapon skill is enough bonus accuracy to hit end game monsters as consistently as a non-Minotaur race that doesn't have the built in -5 Accuracy. I guess it would be a similar but different question to ask if Minos + Maces can overcome the dual penalty at 50 skill alone and hit as often as other races / weapons with similar investment. So, can they?

4) Most monsters can be assassinated (even one-hit-killed at lvl 50) yet it requires that you are quick in manovering. Even then some monsters are too fast to get behind them without the use of ice magic or invisibility. Since Assassination skill also adds Reach attack the rogue can be in the back row and concentrate entirely on Assassination and Dagger.

Good to know, thanks for the detailed explanation.

5) In LoG1 ranged weapons are way more powerfull then in LoG2 due to the learnable Volley skill. My personal experience is that a party of 4 ranged rogues (2x throwing + 2x missile) can dish out even more damage then 4 mages. There is enough ammo for bows and crossbows but you will prolly end up with more arrows then bolts because skeleton archers can drop spare arrows in LoG1.

Hmm, I thought the Skeleton Frost Arrows vanished after being used? I'll have to try again and see. I mean you're right, it is a bit more ammo, but I thought for some reason they were destructible, unlike Broadhead Arrows.

8) When you cleared everything in LoG1 you can expect to have lvl 13 to 14 characters in the end. With 4 skill points per level-up this gives you 48..52 skill points after character creation. This means that you can at best max out 1 skill so it's wise to choose skills carefully and stick with your choices! For example it's a bad idea to pick more than 1 weapon skill or 2 magic elements.

Dang, thats rough. So even as a Human very rough to get Heavy Armor and max out a weapon.

[minmay]

3) In LoG1 all weapon skills add the same amount of +damage/+accuracy so the hit/miss difference between lvl 50 Mace and lvl 50 Sword skill depends on the Dexterity stat of the characters and the weapons in use. With many maces in LoG1 having a malus to accuracy it might be wise to have some extra Dex gear at hand.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm asking if just having 50 weapon skill is enough bonus accuracy to hit end game monsters as consistently as a non-Minotaur race that doesn't have the built in -5 Accuracy. I guess it would be a similar but different question to ask if Minos + Maces can overcome the dual penalty at 50 skill alone and hit as often as other races / weapons with similar investment. So, can they?

Monsters in Grimrock 1 have uniformly poor evasion. You won't hit as often as characters with more accuracy, since that's, y'know, the whole point of accuracy as a stat, but it's not a large reduction in damage output. However, you should be aware of a couple other things:
- strength gives 1 attack power every 2 levels and nothing else useful (just carrying capacity)
- dexterity gives 2 accuracy, 2 evasion, and shock/fire resistance every level

Damage/time between melee weapon classes in Grimrock 1 goes like this:
swords > unarmed and daggers > axes > maces
Maces and axes are just insultingly bad compared to the other options. Throwing and missile weapons should outdamage them too. Note that daggers are better than unarmed if you get improved backstabbing or assassin, since those only work with daggers (unarmed and other melee weapons just get regular backstabbing regardless of your assassination skill). The comparison is too close to go very far either way otherwise, at least assuming you pick the fist fighter trait (I don't know why you wouldn't if you're going to fight unarmed!), since I can't really predict how many skill points you'll have when you find each dagger.
Also, the descriptions of the Quick Strike abilities are wrong. They don't increase attack speed by 25% or 50%, they decrease cooldown by 25% or 50%. So rather than increasing damage/time by 25% or 50%, they increase it by 33% or 100%.
Swords at skill 50 have lower cooldown than even daggers and unarmed, but daggers and unarmed have lower cooldowns than any other weapons if you don't have swords 50.

[Lohengramm]

2) Protection works vs. physical damage, both melee and ranged.

This is only true for monsters. For players, protection only works on melee attacks and does nothing to ranged physical attacks.

Does it also do nothing vs. Magic / elemental damage then? So Protection sounds like a real bad investment in a general sense...

[Dr.Disaster]

2) Protection works vs. physical damage, both melee and ranged.

This is only true for monsters. For players, protection only works on melee attacks and does nothing to ranged physical attacks.

Does it also do nothing vs. Magic / elemental damage then? So Protection sounds like a real bad investment in a general sense...

Protection works only vs. physical attacks. To counter magic/elemental damage you'll need resistances.

3) In LoG1 all weapon skills add the same amount of +damage/+accuracy so the hit/miss difference between lvl 50 Mace and lvl 50 Sword skill depends on the Dexterity stat of the characters and the weapons in use. With many maces in LoG1 having a malus to accuracy it might be wise to have some extra Dex gear at hand.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm asking if just having 50 weapon skill is enough bonus accuracy to hit end game monsters as consistently as a non-Minotaur race that doesn't have the built in -5 Accuracy. I guess it would be a similar but different question to ask if Minos + Maces can overcome the dual penalty at 50 skill alone and hit as often as other races / weapons with similar investment. So, can they?

Imagine you have two minotaurs with same dex stat and skill level but one with mace skill and one with a different weapon skill. The minotaur with the higher accuracy will then hit more often and since many maces have a malus to accuracy it prolly won't be the mace user.

5) In LoG1 ranged weapons are way more powerfull then in LoG2 due to the learnable Volley skill. My personal experience is that a party of 4 ranged rogues (2x throwing + 2x missile) can dish out even more damage then 4 mages. There is enough ammo for bows and crossbows but you will prolly end up with more arrows then bolts because skeleton archers can drop spare arrows in LoG1.

Hmm, I thought the Skeleton Frost Arrows vanished after being used? I'll have to try again and see. I mean you're right, it is a bit more ammo, but I thought for some reason they were destructible, unlike Broadhead Arrows.

LoG1 has elemental enchanted arrows. Once those have hit a monster they become regular arrows and can be reused.

8) When you cleared everything in LoG1 you can expect to have lvl 13 to 14 characters in the end. With 4 skill points per level-up this gives you 48..52 skill points after character creation. This means that you can at best max out 1 skill so it's wise to choose skills carefully and stick with your choices! For example it's a bad idea to pick more than 1 weapon skill or 2 magic elements.

Dang, thats rough. So even as a Human very rough to get Heavy Armor and max out a weapon.

To do that it takes 66 skill points. That's impossible to do without a good bunch of extra skill points from an external source.

[Lohengramm]

Jeeze. all this is adding up to Strength and Heavy Armor being basically worthless investments. All you need is Dex and Vit, and if you're using ranged all you really need is Vit + Dodge talent tree since Dex doesn't boost ranged accuracy.

[Lohengramm]

Lots of great info, thanks!

Still kind of missing my point about accuracy though. I get it that on the stat sheet it will say x has more accuracy than y. That isn't the question. I'm asking if, at 40-50 Mace skill, against the same target as you would use a Sword or anything else that can miss, you basically have the same actual hit rate they do since you've overcome enemy evasion by such a large amount due to all your skill investment.

Like say you are fighting Super Dragon Trogdor and you have a 95% hit rate w/ Sword at 40 skill, do you still pretty much reach a 95% or better hit rate with any weapon raised near the cap on skill, regardless of other factors?

[minmay]

Jeeze. all this is adding up to Strength and Heavy Armor being basically worthless investments.

That is mostly accurate.

All you need is Dex and Vit, and if you're using ranged all you really need is Vit + Dodge talent tree since Dex doesn't boost ranged accuracy.

IMO evasion isn't really useful either. Like protection, it only works against melee attacks, whereas weapon/spell skills and assassination actually make monsters die faster.

Still kind of missing my point about accuracy though. I get it that on the stat sheet it will say x has more accuracy than y. That isn't the question. I'm asking if, at 40-50 Mace skill, against the same target as you would use a Sword or anything else that can miss, you basically have the same actual hit rate they do since you've overcome enemy evasion by such a large amount due to all your skill investment.

No, you will not have the same actual hit rate.