Deactivate automap for a dungeon

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Masterluck
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Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Masterluck » Sun May 27, 2018 12:45 pm

Hi,
is it possible to deactivate the automap feature for a dungeon?
I'm currently working on a Wizardry 1 dungeon and it turns out that the automap destroys the whole experience, because the game is made in a way that you have to map yourself as if you were in a real maze. The game tries and stops you in all your efforts to reach the end. When there is an automap it's much too easy and boring.

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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Dr.Disaster » Sun May 27, 2018 2:31 pm

What you're looking for seems rather simple: force the "Oldschool mode" option at game start to "On" and be done with it. Now while the HowTo to this brute force option is beyone me as a non-modder this technique by Zo Kath Ra might offer you even more control over the map of your mod.

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Curunir
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Curunir » Sun May 27, 2018 4:56 pm

Quick simple question - why would you want to do that instead of just tell players in the text file or even in the mod's ingame description text that it's intended to work in oldschool mode / no map?

Why risk alienating players in an already small community by "forcing" anything on them and not letting them play how they want, within the bounds and expectations of the original game?

Zo Kath Ra
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Location: Germany

Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Zo Kath Ra » Sun May 27, 2018 8:10 pm

Masterluck wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:45 pm
Hi,
is it possible to deactivate the automap feature for a dungeon?
I'm currently working on a Wizardry 1 dungeon and it turns out that the automap destroys the whole experience, because the game is made in a way that you have to map yourself as if you were in a real maze. The game tries and stops you in all your efforts to reach the end. When there is an automap it's much too easy and boring.
You can deactivate the automap for a level by creating another level with the same coordinates:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8266&p=83899

THOM has done this in his "Journey to Justice" mod:
http://grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14719

Masterluck
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Masterluck » Sun May 27, 2018 10:06 pm

First: Thanks for the replys, I already gathering some ideas. :)

Second: To answer your question Curunir:
You have a point, but I tried it out several times, and the automap completely destroys the experience. Wizardry was build to always fool around with the player. It mocks you and sends you around the dungeon with invisible teleporters. It also lets you step out on one side and you get to the other side. That particular part looks very stupid on the automap, because there are parts that you can't reach, they are only there to fool you. It looks as if a path goes further but in fact you are teleported to the same looking other side of the dungeon. There are areas of darkness where you can only trust your ears. One look on the map and all the fun is gone. Sure, I COULD just recommend using old school mode, but how many players would do that? How many people played Grimrock in oldschool mode on their first playthrough?^^
Nonetheless I will consider that, maybe other players could say what their opinion on that matter is.

Thanks so far :)
Lukas

bongobeat
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Location: France

Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by bongobeat » Sun May 27, 2018 11:29 pm

Isaac has made a small tool to activate a fog of war, so you can't see anything on the automap where the fog is placed.

here:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7951&start=1470
My asset pack: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9320

Log1 mod : Toorum Manor: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5505

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Curunir
Posts: 332
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Curunir » Mon May 28, 2018 7:09 am

Masterluck wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:06 pm
First: Thanks for the replys, I already gathering some ideas. :)

Second: To answer your question Curunir:
You have a point, but I tried it out several times, and the automap completely destroys the experience. Wizardry was build to always fool around with the player. It mocks you and sends you around the dungeon with invisible teleporters. It also lets you step out on one side and you get to the other side. That particular part looks very stupid on the automap, because there are parts that you can't reach, they are only there to fool you. It looks as if a path goes further but in fact you are teleported to the same looking other side of the dungeon. There are areas of darkness where you can only trust your ears. One look on the map and all the fun is gone. Sure, I COULD just recommend using old school mode, but how many players would do that? How many people played Grimrock in oldschool mode on their first playthrough?^^
Nonetheless I will consider that, maybe other players could say what their opinion on that matter is.

Thanks so far :)
Lukas
The issue with this is that all those things you want players NOT to spoil by using the automap are just terrible, terrible game design from the very earliest days of RPGs when people thought silent spin teleporters were somehow fun or interesting. I like to believe we have matured to a point where we can come up with gameplay that doesn't involve cheap, annoying tricks that pass as "mechanics" or "puzzles".

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Isaac
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Isaac » Mon May 28, 2018 9:25 am

Curunir wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:09 am
The issue with this is that all those things you want players NOT to spoil by using the automap are just terrible, terrible game design from the very earliest days of RPGs when people thought silent spin teleporters were somehow fun or interesting.
I cannot think that anybody ever thought that... and no, I don't mean that it amazes me, I mean it was almost certainly never the intention behind it. The intention was undoubtedly pain—as it should be... these things were traps, and deterrents; they were built in to keep people out, or to get them lost, frustrated; even to waste their time. When I say people, I mean adventurers & trespassers in the game, not the Players of the game.

In context, they are not supposed to be fun or interesting...(though that doesn't preclude a player from finding them to be an interesting challenge, but the context is that of the location taken seriously).

BTW... I would not want to play a dungeon-crawler whose designer treated it like an amusement park—not unless they actually set the game in an amusement park; and even then... if that's all it was, then it would not hold my interest. It should never be about finding 'the next amusing activity down the hall'; the place is hostile; it should be solve or give up—and lose the (necessarily earned) privilege of progressing further; to gain the sense of accomplishment for having succeeded despite the challenge and abject resistance.
Masterluck wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:06 pm
How many people played Grimrock in oldschool mode on their first playthrough?^^
My first game of LoG2 was played Ironman with single use crystals; (I didn't mind using the automap). It took me almost two months to complete the game, and it was one of the most enjoyable dungeon-crawler experiences that I have played.

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Curunir
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by Curunir » Mon May 28, 2018 9:48 am

I never imagined there were so many people sharing this sort of sentiment and who are so fond of old-school dungeon designs and mechanics.

I thought Grimrock 1 and 2 were great just because they did not really have any of those "annoyance" puzzles and mechanics and generally respected the player's time. Well, I have one more dungeon to do where I can implement all the horrid artifacts of 1985, I guess...

kelly1111
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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Post by kelly1111 » Mon May 28, 2018 11:35 am

I have mixed feelings about "spinners / twisters and teleporter loopholes"
They can be frustrating and a nuisiance when done wrong. just a spinner in a hallway ... that you have to cross over and over again...
To me they need to be implemented in context with the enviroment. To make a trap more difficult or push the player into a direction previously not explored when certain circumstances are met.

I remeber playing a dungeon crawler where there was a sort of cirlce hallway and I didnt notice that everytime I turned a corner that I was teleported to another hallway ... and the more I turned the more options became available to travel too. This captivated me and stimulated my lust to explore more. Mind you... this only worked becouse the teleported was not noticable. In grimrock I havent achieved this... it is to me always noticable when you teleport. <--- anyone ever found a solution to this ?

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