Magic is too cumbersome...

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Patchumz » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:29 am

Curunir wrote:I'm not sure about only using one spell, I find myself constantly switching from the higher tier spells to Light to lower tier spells when mana is low.
With the Greater spells, I find no use for the lower tier ones anymore, and Light lasts for a good 20 minutes at least. I spend 95% of my time casting Lightning Bolts and Frostbolts. When I'm not casting those, it's out of combat casts, which means I have all the time in the world to set up my bolts again.

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Crashone » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:54 am

Crashone wrote:I'm a fan of DM and CSB since they came out.
I can say without problem that what pleased me most is the magic system. This is what really exited me when I discovered LoG.
Beside this I can say the rune system needs little tunning to be perfect.
The fact is, in DM/CSB you can cast spells for all your player in the same place, that is not as easy in LoG, what may be disappoint some persons.
When you cast a 4 runes spell, you click the grid five times (4runes+cast button), that, in a middle of a fight is really troublesome.
To be honnest, i've never used 'enchanted arrows' spell other than to try it once.

IMHO, what could be done:

- select runes with the left Mouse button
- cast the spell with the RMB (if the mouse is on the rune grid)
- add a button to remove all the runes selected at a time.

That's not an heavy modification, but again, it could add more fun. PLEASE DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING ELSE, ALL IS PERFECT!!!!!!

By the way, the fireball is a 3 runes spell when others bolt are 2 runes spell. Why?
Yes, I quoted myself ;)

Thinking of this, I replayed CSB yesterday evening, trying to understand the 'feeling' of what appears to me the best interface of all times.
What I noticed for now:

- Rune system is great, very immersive, no dout about that.
- real time casting is OK (click runes each time you spell)

So what? what makes differences with LoG that make me feel uncomfortable?

2 points:
- LoG interface is at the bottom right of the screen / CSB's is at eye level
- Runes are in line in CSB and not in square. takes me me little time to undestand because cast in CSB is so natural.
Your mouse move in ONE dimension (a line) and not TWO (the LoG grid) and, believe me, that is make really all the difference.

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Jack Dandy » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:02 am

I hope they if they the devs really do simplify the rune system, they'll make it for Easy mode only.

I think it's a good thing that they made it this unique, and I'll be glad if they keep it the same.

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Halk » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:04 am

Jack Dandy wrote:I hope they if they the devs really do simplify the rune system, they'll make it for Easy mode only.

I think it's a good thing that they made it this unique, and I'll be glad if they keep it the same.
And I hope they don't make it for easy mode only. Normal mode suits me fine and I'd like to play through on hard at some point. I just don't want to have to fight against monsters and repetitive strain injury at the same time :)

I hope they make it a tickbox option... even if they do it at the start of a game that's fine too. I don't want to rain on your fun, but I really do struggle with the runes.

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Mychaelh » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:03 pm

Halk wrote:... how would you feel if they changed it so that when you cast a spell it left the runes highlighted?
It would break the spell system, because then there is no difference between casting an 1 or 4 rune spell anymore.
That means all tactic subtleties of the magic combat is gone, because consideration of distance (where it is save to take the time to cast) has been taken out of the system.
As soon as you have the big blast, the small play no role anymore.
With the system as it is now, even the small (but fast and 'easy') blasts are always useful.
I have no problem with an reduced 'baby-mode', as long as the 'hardcore' difficult level stays at it is (or get even expanded).

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by SpiderFighter » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:15 pm

Mychaelh wrote:
Cutter wrote:Can we at least get a patch that will leave the spell punched in ready to cast at all times untill changed? Having to punch in runes while avoiding mobs and having your melee and other ranged group is a real pain in the ass. Particularly those 4 rune spells.
It would just change combat spells to instant super-weapons and the whole tactical combat aspect of the game would become boring.
All combat in this type of games is about tactics:

- Don't give the monsters the chance to ambush you. Only explore new areas, if you have cleared your back.
- Know your escape route.
- Don't fight multiple monsters, always try to lure one away -> '4 against 1' not 'fair play' is the name of the game. And the 4 is your party.
- Recognize good battlefields:
* long corridors that allow to blindly go backwards for constant distance attacks
* Chambers for melee fights ('circling' is the standard manoeuvre, the whole combat system is designed around - it's NOT a 'gamy cheat'.
* In the most ideal outcome the monsters never manage to hit you, you hit them and slide away.
- Assure you have freedom of movement (no pits, teleporters, etc.)

- Magic is NOT for melee (only magic weapons):
- Magic is an arcane discipline, demanding years of study in a library, not a gym. It depends on the proper performance of thaumaturgical gestures at the right moment (the 'clicking' of the rune-glyphs).

THIS. So much, this!! Nice post.

And please, Dear Devs, do NOT kill functionality on the right mouse button when selecting runes. So much of the world is geared toward left-button pressing, that it took me a couple of in-game floors to stop pressing the left button (thus unequipping my characters) in the heat of battle. As a result, I use that right button for every single step of the spell casting process, just to keep myself in the habit that "Right is right, Left is wrong." :D

Choosing runes in the midst of a frantic battle is the POINT: you're in the midst of a frantic battle. Spell casting *shouldn't* be easy. I'm currently playing a group of 4 mages and, although it's slightly insane, it's also a load of fun...and absolutley possible.

Fantastic job on the game AND the magic system, guys! I can't wait for the mapping engine to be released!

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Radioman970 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:24 pm

Nothing like getting backed into a corner and have to use your wits to get out of there. Man, I love that! sure, you die often...but it's those times when you fight it out and live another day! :D

This thread is on the right track I think...

Take the challenge for what it is... fumble with learning how to click those runes and get that spell out there!

Obscure analogy time: Make the NASCAR race more than just driving in circles. ;)

the EOB screen shot pages back reminded me about that system. lol click on "FIREBALL" I'd forgotten. ...I'll continue to pimp the Arx Fatalis magic system. LOVED that one. That system, with a Wii style motion controller, would be the absolute pinnacle of magic casting satisfaction!
I'd take one of the four wooden clubs I was carrying and just bash open doors with it.
- if life were like Dungeon Master

I'd click FIREBALL much more on New Year's Eve
- if life were like Eye of the Beholder

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by jfunk » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:33 pm

I think being able to queue your next spell during the mage's cooldown would be a good compromise. Doesn't diminish the added difficulty of casting more complex spells, but gives people a couple more seconds to get those selections in.

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Isaac » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:25 pm

The runes in Grimrock seem to derive from Stonekeep; (though they could be independently invented, it still existed in the earlier game).

I think the system is fine, but I would prefer it is the 'keypad' saved it's state and merely reflected the result for the casting attack ~unless the developers actually intended for the runes to need manual setting each and every time the player plans to cast a spell.

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Re: Magic is too cumbersome...

Post by Cryxx » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:39 pm

Magic is always the most powerful in all fantasy games. In many there's almost no trade off.

The trade off in Legend of Grimrock is you
1) need to actually write down or physically remember your spells
2) have to wait to cast the spell
3) do it real time just like if you were actually trying to cast the spell. You would be struggling while running in a circle to cast it.

Sorry there's some sense of toughness in your spell. It's not like the mage isn't trying to concentrate and go through this ritual or anything. Oh wait he/she/it is.
Combat is designed to be inter-active.

It's designed to be hard, get used to it. They stated that in Hard mode a certain mob will 1 shot you. Sweet. The mechanics on how to play it are not overly complicated.

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