"Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
affa
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:17 am

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by affa » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:45 pm

Ethos wrote: Also again item swapping IS NOT an exploit it is exactly how the developers created the calculation. I already posted about that issue and why the entire Vitality and Willpower system should be changed.
i think that's just a different definition of 'exploit'. i think most would consider side effect like gear swapping before level ups causing massive long term gains an unintended side effect of the game design and an 'exploit'. I know I do.

I mean, imagine if there was a magic arrow that let you shoot through walls, but you could use it on the final level to beat the game without even seeing the boss. It would be 'as designed', but an exploit that needed to be fixed.

affa
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:17 am

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by affa » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:47 pm

Ethos wrote:
seebs wrote:That something is the way it's designed doesn't mean it's not an exploit. It's often the case that a system as designed turns out to have unintended effects. Pretty sure "move all these items to each character in turn" is not what they were looking for.
If it was unintended then they wouldn't have had the calculation like it is or put vitality of willpower on items. They tested their game and knew exactly what these items would do.
If this were true, bad mechanics would rarely, if ever, exist. They might not have realized all the ramifications of their decision.

User avatar
mystrdat
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:13 am

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by mystrdat » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:02 pm

affa wrote:If this were true, bad mechanics would rarely, if ever, exist. They might not have realized all the ramifications of their decision.
^

Ethos
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Ethos » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:02 pm

affa wrote:
Ethos wrote:
seebs wrote:That something is the way it's designed doesn't mean it's not an exploit. It's often the case that a system as designed turns out to have unintended effects. Pretty sure "move all these items to each character in turn" is not what they were looking for.
If it was unintended then they wouldn't have had the calculation like it is or put vitality of willpower on items. They tested their game and knew exactly what these items would do.
If this were true, bad mechanics would rarely, if ever, exist. They might not have realized all the ramifications of their decision.
Or maybe they have this to offset the random level-up health and energy? Honestly we have no real way of knowing unless they say so. If you think that gear swapping is an exploit any effect from it is far far outweighed by exploiting reloading level-ups to maximize health and energy.

I consider an exploit as a way of getting around game mechanics. An example of that would be reloading saves on level-ups. Just because something is unintended doesn't naturally make it an exploit. The Vitality and Willpower modifiers from items may be unintended but they are indeed following the flawed game mechanics.

seebs
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by seebs » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:47 pm

Devs implement things in straightforward ways without fully considering the implications pretty often. Seriously, you have an idea of what you mean, you write it, it passes the tests you're thinking about ... and you just don't try the things you didn't think of for some mysterious reason, possibly that you didn't think of them.

Happens to dev teams with many more people and a much larger QA department too. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that a behavior which violates some pretty stable game design norms is intentional; often it's just an unconsidered side-effect.

Leodim
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:57 pm

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Leodim » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:26 pm

Sorry to dig up an old post, I am playing the game for the first time and couldn't find any closer info than this post.
From my own test vit and willpower at level up works really strange. While it's true you don't get the same amount of hp/energy depending on their value, you can also have less with more oO Maybe it's all a proportion of vit compared to will to avoid exploit ? I dunno, anyway here is the result :
Leveled up from 9 to 10
- no gear, got :
+4 hp
+9 energy

-reload put some gear with makes a total of +1 vit and +4 will, level up from 9 to 10 again :
+ 2hp
+ 11 energy

[.. here I wrote a passage on why this proportionnal thingy seems bugged to me then I ran a third test and suprise!]

-reload put some gear with makes a total of NO vit and +4 will, level up from 9 to 10 again :
+ 4hp
+ 11 energy

WTF ? vitality actually decrease hp gain/level ? The item in question is huntsman cloak (+4 evasion +1 dex +1vit) I can't see anything here that would decrease hp gain/level.
I reran the tests, got same results again.
This has moved from "exploitable" to "strange" to "wtf super broken" to me... :evil:

User avatar
Dr.Disaster
Posts: 2845
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:48 am

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Dr.Disaster » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:42 pm

Leodim wrote:Sorry to dig up an old post, I am playing the game for the first time and couldn't find any closer info than this post.
From my own test vit and willpower at level up works really strange. While it's true you don't get the same amount of hp/energy depending on their value, you can also have less with more oO Maybe it's all a proportion of vit compared to will to avoid exploit ? I dunno, anyway here is the result :
Leveled up from 9 to 10
- no gear, got :
+4 hp
+9 energy

-reload put some gear with makes a total of +1 vit and +4 will, level up from 9 to 10 again :
+ 2hp
+ 11 energy

[.. here I wrote a passage on why this proportionnal thingy seems bugged to me then I ran a third test and suprise!]

-reload put some gear with makes a total of NO vit and +4 will, level up from 9 to 10 again :
+ 4hp
+ 11 energy

WTF ? vitality actually decrease hp gain/level ? The item in question is huntsman cloak (+4 evasion +1 dex +1vit) I can't see anything here that would decrease hp gain/level.
I reran the tests, got same results again.
This has moved from "exploitable" to "strange" to "wtf super broken" to me... :evil:
There is nothing broken. On level up a character gains a random value of additional Health and Energy from a range with current Vitality and Willpower defining the min/max value of that range. It's a plain and simple dice roll with a bonus defined by stats, something pretty common in RPG's.

Leodim
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:57 pm

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Leodim » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:12 pm

Ha ok, didnt ran tests many times enough then.
Well still exploitable with items switching (and of course reloading).
I find this kind of systems fine for irl rpgs, where there is a game master, talking, no reload, rules explained before you roll, etc. I don't find it much suitable to video games RPG where random should stick to things that have many-many rolls to equilibrate (like a 8-10 dmg output), but hey, just my 2 cents, and it doesn't bother me that much.
That's kind of the same logic to me as why it can be (not long I admit) fun to play "highest card" with a 3 year old irl (pure random), not much against a computer :D I admit the metaphor is quite an exageration of the symptom :D

Taem
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 2:05 am

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Taem » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:28 am

@Leodim

Are you saying if you equip a bunch of gear with +vit then gain a level, you get the bonus health from that +vit gear? I'm just asking because if so, I had no idea about the mechanics of this game.

Leodim
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:57 pm

Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Leodim » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:52 pm

Yes, as explained in this thread yes.
But there is also a random rolled, depending on your vit and willpower.

Exemple (with totally fake numbers because I didn't look the formulas of the thread) :
- I have 10 vit, I will gain a random number from 5 to 7 hp when I level up.
- If I equip a +2vit item just before leveling up (making it 12 vit), I will gain a random number from 6 to 8 hp when I level up. So yes in average it should be better, but since there is only one roll (EDIT : unless you reload of course), it also could be worse.

Clearer ?

Post Reply