"Backwards-compatible" Vitality

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Drax
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Drax » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:47 pm

I presume by fixed he means 'vitality contributes to health while wearing but not to health gained on levelling'

seebs
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by seebs » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:05 pm

Thinking about it more: If you just made vitality affect stats directly instead of affecting rolls, the +5 vitality item thing would be fixed. Equipping a +5 vitality item would increase your health, removing it would decrease your health.

Ethos
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Ethos » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:05 pm

Drax wrote:I presume by fixed he means 'vitality contributes to health while wearing but not to health gained on levelling'
Then there would have to be a completely new secondary calculation for Vitality because currently the only time Vitality gives health other than on level up is at level 1. They would also need to change the description for Vitality and Willpower in-game to clarify the differences from item and character statistics.

May as well just put +health and +resists on items instead of Vitality if that is the only change made because that would essentially be what that sort of "fix" would do.

seebs
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by seebs » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:15 pm

Ethos wrote:
Drax wrote:I presume by fixed he means 'vitality contributes to health while wearing but not to health gained on levelling'
Then there would have to be a completely new secondary calculation for Vitality because currently the only time Vitality gives health other than on level up is at level 1. They would also need to change the description for Vitality and Willpower in-game to clarify the differences from item and character statistics.

May as well just put +health and +resists on items instead of Vitality if that is the only change made because that would essentially be what that sort of "fix" would do.
Except that the amount of +resist isn't linear. So +2 vitality has different resistance effects if your vitality was 10 before than if it was 15 before.

It's not a new problem, and it's well-understood. You know what effect Vitality would have on health. Say it's effectively +1 health per level over 1. No problem; you add 2 vitality, you add 2 * (level - 1) health. You remove 2 vitality, you remove 2 * (level - 1) health.

3E D&D's Con worked this way already, and it's been implemented repeatedly in video games.

Ethos
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Ethos » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:22 pm

seebs wrote:
Except that the amount of +resist isn't linear. So +2 vitality has different resistance effects if your vitality was 10 before than if it was 15 before.

It's not a new problem, and it's well-understood. You know what effect Vitality would have on health. Say it's effectively +1 health per level over 1. No problem; you add 2 vitality, you add 2 * (level - 1) health. You remove 2 vitality, you remove 2 * (level - 1) health.

3E D&D's Con worked this way already, and it's been implemented repeatedly in video games.
You aren't considering that Health from Vitality isn't based on level which is exactly the issue posed through this thread which is why that won't work without a complete overhaul of the Vitality and Willpower calculations. With what you are proposing for items you may as well just create an entirely new statistic since no character attribute has level scaling values.

affa
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by affa » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:30 pm

Ethos wrote:Vitality and Willpower as implemented in LoG is flawed. Instead of being a level-up modifier(+(VIT/2 -10) * 1HP on level up) Vitality should give a health bonus based on a level multiplier((VIT/2-10) *LEVEL)+((VIT-10) *2.5)) rounded down.

As it is now you can give items with bonuses to vitality and willpower to characters that are about to level up so they gain additional health and energy permanently even after you remove these items. This seems more cheesy/unintended to me than if they had been backwards compatible. Instead of allowing individual characters to gain health and energy retroactively from vitality and willpower respectively we currently can give bonus health and energy to ALL of our characters on EACH level up because of the one-time calculations upon level up.

Vitality and Willpower both should be changed to use character level as a multiplier and not themselves as a modifier on level ups. Not only would this make later statistical skill bonuses much more useful and valued it would prevent the abuse of item tossing to gain permanent health and energy bonuses. Even one of the first armor items your characters come across gives -1 willpower that can permanently reduce your character's energy. It just doesn't make sense game wise or logic wise that using an item temporarily can permanently gimp you.

The calculation used now also limits custom made content of spells, potions, and items that modify the Vitality and Willpower values. Any items, potions, or spells that gives bonuses or reductions to these two statistics will all be able to be abused on level-ups. Please consider changing the way that these values are calculated.
All true.

Game design that makes a decent % of players hyper-focus on level ups (be it to ensure they get the 'max' increase, or worse, as the above poster points out, gear swapping) is bad design.

seebs
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by seebs » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:33 pm

Ethos wrote:
seebs wrote:
Except that the amount of +resist isn't linear. So +2 vitality has different resistance effects if your vitality was 10 before than if it was 15 before.

It's not a new problem, and it's well-understood. You know what effect Vitality would have on health. Say it's effectively +1 health per level over 1. No problem; you add 2 vitality, you add 2 * (level - 1) health. You remove 2 vitality, you remove 2 * (level - 1) health.

3E D&D's Con worked this way already, and it's been implemented repeatedly in video games.
You aren't considering that Health from Vitality isn't based on level which is exactly the issue posed through this thread which is why that won't work without a complete overhaul of the Vitality and Willpower calculations. With what you are proposing for items you may as well just create an entirely new statistic since no character attribute has level scaling values.
Health from vitality is currently based on the number of levels for which you have it. If it were changed to just be based on level, a lot of quirks and exploits would all disappear at once, and it would no longer be stupid to buy vitality late in the game.

Ethos
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Ethos » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:38 pm

seebs wrote:
Ethos wrote:
seebs wrote:
Except that the amount of +resist isn't linear. So +2 vitality has different resistance effects if your vitality was 10 before than if it was 15 before.

It's not a new problem, and it's well-understood. You know what effect Vitality would have on health. Say it's effectively +1 health per level over 1. No problem; you add 2 vitality, you add 2 * (level - 1) health. You remove 2 vitality, you remove 2 * (level - 1) health.

3E D&D's Con worked this way already, and it's been implemented repeatedly in video games.
You aren't considering that Health from Vitality isn't based on level which is exactly the issue posed through this thread which is why that won't work without a complete overhaul of the Vitality and Willpower calculations. With what you are proposing for items you may as well just create an entirely new statistic since no character attribute has level scaling values.
Health from vitality is currently based on the number of levels for which you have it. If it were changed to just be based on level, a lot of quirks and exploits would all disappear at once, and it would no longer be stupid to buy vitality late in the game.
Look I think you are really confused on what I posted on this page and the last. I was responding to the guy who said that Vitality from items should not effect the level-up modifier. He said that the other Vitality calculations were completely fine as is and I was pointing out the flaws and pointlessness of what would happen if the level-up modifier from Vitality on items was removed. I already posted several pages ago of the current calculation is used and the devaluation of the attribute given from skills.

Also again item swapping IS NOT an exploit it is exactly how the developers created the calculation. I already posted about that issue and why the entire Vitality and Willpower system should be changed.

seebs
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by seebs » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:40 pm

That something is the way it's designed doesn't mean it's not an exploit. It's often the case that a system as designed turns out to have unintended effects. Pretty sure "move all these items to each character in turn" is not what they were looking for.

Ethos
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Re: "Backwards-compatible" Vitality

Post by Ethos » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:41 pm

seebs wrote:That something is the way it's designed doesn't mean it's not an exploit. It's often the case that a system as designed turns out to have unintended effects. Pretty sure "move all these items to each character in turn" is not what they were looking for.
If it was unintended then they wouldn't have had the calculation like it is or put vitality of willpower on items. They tested their game and knew exactly what these items would do.

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