Grimrock

*QUESTIONS*

1) Evasion: I'm at 65 now with my main Minotaur and can definitely see him getting Master Ninja before this dungeon is over and I start Master Quest. So by the time I get that skill, he'll receive +10 additional Evade and then the +50 giving him 125 evade. Isn't Evade percentage based, thus anything over 100% is wasted? Also, does this game cap out at 95% Evade, or can you really get 100% Evade?

2) Evasion-2: So I gave my two back mages all the heavy armor for protection and they both have over 60+ Protection, but also a -40 or so Evade. Does a negative Evasion make them easier to hit (assuming they are melee attacked from the back or sides)?

3) Rogue Skills: Missile Weapons: Improved Quickshot: does it work with crossbows, or only short bows? While they are both technically bows, one is mechanical and one is a pull string, so I'd really like to know now that I've finally reached IQS and am almost at Volley with my Minotaur.

4) Monsters Killing Monsters: I've never been so sad to see my monsters getting murdered by their comrades fireballs and lightening bolts. Is this intended or a mistake? Also, does this mean I lost experience because I did not injure the monster before the other monster killed it's friend?

*COMMENTS*

5) Armor: Just a comment to the creators; when your heavy *body* armors give the same defense as *boots* or a *helmet*, that's odd. And when it weights 12-lb (4x more than the Moleskin Armor at +3 Protection), but the gloves and boots both with +15-protection weight only 3-lb, there is absolutely no reason to upgrade body armor and sacrifice the precious little carrying capacity I have for what little benefit Protection gives.

My Minotaur with 65 Evade is like a god... I have to practically try and kill him now because otherwise if I'm playing normally and kiting danger like I'm suppose to, he's one tough guy to kill. I'm currently on level 10, so I'll really have more to say after getting to the final level and going back to complete the Fighters Challenge, but so far, Protection is *not* worth the effort, as others have already stated.

6) Dexterity: Dex should really play a factor with missile damage, not strength. There is too much emphasis on Strength when playing a Rogue; in order to actual deal a fair amount of damage as a rogue, you have to play a Minotaur rogue to get enough strength! Which, btw, is utterly ridiculous if you've ever played a RPG before! And yet, there really is no other way to get decent damage with missile weapons without that added strength, which the skill "Missile Weapons" mysteriously does not provide....?!? Who designed this game anyhow?

7) Monster AI: I don't mind having to dance circles with the monsters. I don't mind their predictable behaviors when they see me. What I find pretty sad is when there is a statue in the center of a square room and I'm on one side of the statue while a monster is on the other side of said statue trying desperately to move "through" said statue to attack me while I sit there calmly getting ready for this laughably moronic buffoon of a villain who cant even figure out to sidestep one block to see a path and reach me. You'd think there would be some sort of path-finding algorithm that says, "hey monster, if you try and move forward more than once and you have not moved forward, nor has your 'wall collide' triggered, then move to the next empty space closest to the target because something must be blocking your path..."



For all my criticism though, I really do love this game! Keep up the great work! I really look forward to supporting you in the future and will definitely purchase Grimrock 2. And perhaps this is why I think it's so important to voice my opinion on these things, because I'd like to seem them balanced better going into GR2. Anyways, one of the best game's I've ever played since Dungeon Master, despite how my words above may sound.

Taem wrote:1) Evasion: I'm at 65 now with my main Minotaur and can definitely see him getting Master Ninja before this dungeon is over and I start Master Quest. So by the time I get that skill, he'll receive +10 additional Evade and then the +50 giving him 125 evade. Isn't Evade percentage based, thus anything over 100% is wasted? Also, does this game cap out at 95% Evade, or can you really get 100% Evade?

Both Protection and Evasion are not percentage based.

Taem wrote:2) Evasion-2: So I gave my two back mages all the heavy armor for protection and they both have over 60+ Protection, but also a -40 or so Evade. Does a negative Evasion make them easier to hit (assuming they are melee attacked from the back or sides)?

I'm not entirely sure here but it would make sense when negative Evasion improves the chance to be hit.

Taem wrote:3) Rogue Skills: Missile Weapons: Improved Quickshot: does it work with crossbows, or only short bows? While they are both technically bows, one is mechanical and one is a pull string, so I'd really like to know now that I've finally reached IQS and am almost at Volley with my Minotaur.

With a crossbow being a missile weapon improved quickshot naturally works.

Taem wrote:4) Monsters Killing Monsters: I've never been so sad to see my monsters getting murdered by their comrades fireballs and lightening bolts. Is this intended or a mistake? Also, does this mean I lost experience because I did not injure the monster before the other monster killed it's friend?

As far as i know monsters can not attack other monsters on purpose. Yet it is possible that monsters kill monsters but this can only happen when a monster gets hit by another monsters ranged attack.

Dr.Disaster wrote:

Taem wrote:3) Rogue Skills: Missile Weapons: Improved Quickshot: does it work with crossbows, or only short bows? While they are both technically bows, one is mechanical and one is a pull string, so I'd really like to know now that I've finally reached IQS and am almost at Volley with my Minotaur.

With a crossbow being a missile weapon improved quickshot naturally works.

Well, this game is pretty precise with it's meanings. On the Skills section, it says: http://grimrock.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue_Skills
Volley and Master Archer say, "missiles", but Quick Shot and IQS say "bows". This implies that while the bonuses for "missiles" apply to all missile weapons, the "bow" bonuses apply only to bows, and furthermore, since crossbows are mechanical, I assumed it was only for the short bow since a real bow shoots arrows, and a mechanical bow (aka crossbow) shoots quarrels. Since one of my rogues is using a bow and the other a crossbow, I was asking the question to make sure it wasn't just bows, but bows and crossbows, but now you're telling me its actually all missile weapons, so the description is in fact in error?

Dr.Disaster wrote:

Taem wrote:4) Monsters Killing Monsters: I've never been so sad to see my monsters getting murdered by their comrades fireballs and lightening bolts. Is this intended or a mistake? Also, does this mean I lost experience because I did not injure the monster before the other monster killed it's friend?

As far as i know monsters can not attack other monsters on purpose. Yet it is possible that monsters kill monsters but this can only happen when a monster gets hit by another monsters ranged attack.

Yes, this is the case. Perhaps because I don't engage in melee but dance around, when those fireball shooting ghosts shoot, they often hit other baddies in the process. The most blatant area this happened to me was in level 8 where all the mushroom men where - I'd have thought that shooting poison would of made them all immune to poison, but apparently not all of them are poison resistant (maybe the non-poison shooters) because I saw a few kill each other as I danced around them. Also saw the lightening corridor take out its fair share of monsters that tried following me. So if all my toons hit a monster, then I run away and the monster gets killed by another monsters attack, do I still get experience for the kill? I guess you don't know.

Taem wrote:Since one of my rogues is using a bow and the other a crossbow, I was asking the question to make sure it wasn't just bows, but bows and crossbows, but now you're telling me its actually all missile weapons, so the description is in fact in error?

Aye this description should read "with missile weapons" since it works with all of them, including the sling. When you have two rogues in the same party with one going for missile weapon and one not this is very easy to verify.

Taem wrote:Also saw the lightening corridor take out its fair share of monsters that tried following me. So if all my toons hit a monster, then I run away and the monster gets killed by another monsters attack, do I still get experience for the kill? I guess you don't know.

Actually i do know due to this feat: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4675&hilit=challenge

To gain experience from a monster the party has to deal the killing blow. If a monster you did hit is killed by other means you gain nothing.

WRT #6: It's only in the last decade or so that "Dex does everything for missile weapons" has become the standard. It was usually the case before that that Dex affected hit chance but damage bonus was still a function of Str. In that regard Grimrock is sticking to the original definition - but since missile attacks automatically hit if they enter the target's space, Dex-as-accuracy simply isn't relevant.

#2 is somewhat affected by this: if the back row characters are only taking missile attacks or hits from things that can't be evaded (certain monster specials) then evasion doesn't matter anyway but protection still helps. Of course, there will be times when something flanks or gets behind the party, so evasion still matters, just not as much as for the front rank (who are much more likely to be taking those melee attacks).

In that regard Grimrock is sticking to the original definition

You misspelled "no Strength bonus for the missile skill". But on a serious note, I understand how the designers got out of the predicament of dex = chance to hit, by removing the chance to hit entirely and making it reflex based. This is a great system, however limiting the damage a missile character can do by not improving the only viable source of damage improvement (i.e. strength) other than with magic is a real buzz kill to be sure. I believe the creators didn't add strength to the missile tree out of fear all players would build missile based groups instead of the de facto standard setup because, well missiles never miss and are ranged so if they did comparable damage, who would play melee at all?

Unfortunately, I view this as flawed logic, and a design oversight I hope is corrected in LoG2. Like I said, without a way to increase your damage as a bow user, you're restricted to relying on magic users to increase your projectile damage, and/or creating your own characters as Minotaurs with maximized strength. I'm not suggesting a more realistic band of four human rogues focused more on dexterity than strength couldn't beat the game, merely pointing out that comparatively to the class-system this game was designed for - i.e. typical dual-fighters up front, 1-mage in back, 1-rogue - this party would assuredly be at a big disadvantage.

It does bring up an interesting point though, and perhaps answers the "why" to the unasked question of why did RPG's evolve Dexterity into a "chance to hit/added damage" in the first place? I think had LoG stuck with the standard RPG fare, Strength would have increased melee damage and carrying capacity (and possibly chance to hit with melee weapons only and health), and Dexterity would have increased missile chance to hit and damage and evade, thus two distinct avenues for two distinct class arch-types = more versatility in classes and balance options.

The only counter-argument I can think of against this idea in regards to Grimrock in general is regarding missile mastery and increased critical hits. Unfortunately, I honestly don't know how much critical hit% starts at so I don't know if doubling the percent is worth it, and I don't know what a critical hit does in Grimrock because in every game, a critical hit does something different, so I really can't say rather it's worth it or not, however seeing as to how often I score a critical hit - not very often at all - I'd say not really, at least not compared to investing fully into Strength at character creation.

Thoughts?

Taem wrote:Unfortunately, I view this as flawed logic, and a design oversight I hope is corrected in LoG2. Like I said, without a way to increase your damage as a bow user, you're restricted to relying on magic users to increase your projectile damage, and/or creating your own characters as Minotaurs with maximized strength.

AH took a very simple approach: +1 Strength is equal to +0.5 Damage to all weapons. Now the Strength difference between Minotaur and Human/Lizardman Rogues is 5 points which gives Mino's a +2.5 Damage advantage, no matter how points are distributed. Building up any weapon skill adds a lot more +Damage than with any obtainable amount of Strength in a balanced mod so i don't see these +2.5 race-based Damage as too much of an advantage.

The only de-balance here is the Minotaur's Headhunter trait; it's general +3 Damage per carried Skull is a lot! Pack all Skulls from the dungeon onto a Headhunter and you get a mean killing machine but then this boilds down to the usual min-max-ing players can do.

Dr.Disaster wrote:Building up any weapon skill adds a lot more +Damage than with any obtainable amount of Strength in a balanced mod so i don't see these +2.5 race-based Damage as too much of an advantage.

It does? I was hoping as much but could not verify this on the Grimrock wiki, or anywhere else for that matter. So every point into Missiles adds like 0.5-damage or something? If this is true, well then I was the one in error and this one issue is a mute point entirely.