Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

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HerrGrim
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Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by HerrGrim » Fri May 11, 2012 9:05 pm

Hi.

First of all, this game is great. I've done a few runs when experimenting with setups and skills, as well as finished it a few times, and Steam accuses me of having spent 83 hours on this game.
I've finished it with fighter/roguex3 group, a mixed fighter/fighter/rogue/mage, as well as
SpoilerShow
Toorum
(All human groups.)

What bugs me with this game is the same trap most other games fall in. You have mages, master of magic/elements, but completely useless after casting a few spells unless they can spend alot of time resting or wasting resources on potions to restore their energy.

What I would love to see in the form of a mod, or something the devs would consider for future games, is allowing the mage to cast his lowest level spell "for free", in the same manner the other chars can use their weapons with no energy left. The damage potential doesn't have to be great, it doesn't need to include flashy side-effects, but it would remove the "no energy equals useless" part of the mage.

For me personally, this would give mages the ability to be as useful as any other class, as well as giving an element of strategy where you prepare for a difficult fight by making sure energy is at top - or gulping down potions midfight to be able to get off a shield or a heavy damage spell to finish a hard enemy.

Anyway, thanks again for this great game, and keep up the good work.
Worn and weathered but still standing

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petri
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by petri » Fri May 11, 2012 9:15 pm

Thanks for the feedback! This is something we could very well consider in the future.

btw. mages with no energy left are not completely useless because they can still use ranged/throwing weapons but considering your impressive playtime you probably already have this figured out :)

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Thels
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by Thels » Fri May 11, 2012 9:46 pm

petri wrote:btw. mages with no energy left are not completely useless because they can still use ranged/throwing weapons but considering your impressive playtime you probably already have this figured out :)
Since this damage is not augmented in any way, rarely does it do more than 0 damage, though. :P

I'm not sure what the current damage of spells is, and how it scales with skill level. Perhaps a way to implement it is to have the skill trees reduce the mana cost of the 1 rune spells. The only problem is that Ice would require a 1 rune spell. The Ice Shards spell with it's line of effect seems a little too flashy.

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Phlimm
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by Phlimm » Fri May 11, 2012 10:01 pm

Thels wrote:
petri wrote:btw. mages with no energy left are not completely useless because they can still use ranged/throwing weapons but considering your impressive playtime you probably already have this figured out :)
Since this damage is not augmented in any way, rarely does it do more than 0 damage, though.
My suggestion would be to give Mages a skill slot for Throwing Daggers.

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PSY
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by PSY » Fri May 11, 2012 11:04 pm

...or you could just supply more ingredients for the energy potions.

I've got the feeling that the importance of using potions in this game lies somewhere between needless and unnecessary ^^


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Coders don't die, they just gosub without return

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BobT36
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by BobT36 » Fri May 11, 2012 11:57 pm

Phlimm wrote:
Thels wrote:
petri wrote:btw. mages with no energy left are not completely useless because they can still use ranged/throwing weapons but considering your impressive playtime you probably already have this figured out :)
Since this damage is not augmented in any way, rarely does it do more than 0 damage, though.
My suggestion would be to give Mages a skill slot for Throwing Daggers.
A MAGE, that uses throwing daggers?....

Sure it works in the context of the game but still... :/

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Disasterrific
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by Disasterrific » Sat May 12, 2012 6:43 am

If you spec for maximum willpower and occasionally use throwing weapons on weak enemies I found that mana was rarely an issue (except for maybe air magic because of the highest casting costs).

The consumables dilemma is ancient and something which every game in this genre (and a lot of other genres) face, and I don't think there's really a solution to it, aside from making the game harder. In minor combats it is almost never actually necessary to use bombs or potions, in the tough fights you often have to use them to stay alive. It's a shame that poison is almost never worth curing, same with disease - both of these could have been more debilitating I think so that in combat it would become a race to cure them in time.

\/4n!ll4 ][c3
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by \/4n!ll4 ][c3 » Sat May 12, 2012 9:56 am

this is something that has always bugged me about games and mages, is that they dont have any sort of "im a mage, i do this in my free time" sort of attack. everything they do has to be some sort of super powerful world ender, and never just an attack.

its like, on one hand, ok, i get it, mages are low hitpoint, limited spike damage classes, which balances out because you have the brute force dudes there to do clean-up work; but at the same time, its like, i just want to attack the dude and get it over with, you know?

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BobT36
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by BobT36 » Sat May 12, 2012 5:36 pm

\/4n!ll4 ][c3 wrote:this is something that has always bugged me about games and mages, is that they dont have any sort of "im a mage, i do this in my free time" sort of attack. everything they do has to be some sort of super powerful world ender, and never just an attack.

its like, on one hand, ok, i get it, mages are low hitpoint, limited spike damage classes, which balances out because you have the brute force dudes there to do clean-up work; but at the same time, its like, i just want to attack the dude and get it over with, you know?
hehe yeah, I love charging up a huge fireball, but then having to sit using throwing weapons the rest of the time? Rofl. Needs a low damage "Scorch" style attack to pewpew with when moving and/or low mana. Whacking something with a sword or staff when low is fine, but obviously not for anything prolonged.

I could NEVER imagine a proper mage trying to use throwing knives or rocks in the heat of battle, can you actually picture it? A tiny knife clanging uselessly off the target's shoulder, while the enemy just looks at you confused, and that's if the mage managed to hit it at all. (They're hardly super duper precision trained skilled rogues who are able to specifically target weak points..). Its like expecting the mage to go arm wrestling against a barbarian just because he's out of mana. XD

Like I said it may work in this game but it just feels, wrong..

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Merethif
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Re: Great game, and feeble attempt at constructive criticism

Post by Merethif » Sat May 12, 2012 7:38 pm

Staves would be even better weapon of choice for a manaless Mage. And it's easy to implement as a patch.

1. There's already Staff Defence skill, it would just needs to additionally increase Attack Power and Accuracy of staves (apart regular bonuses).

2. We already have staves in LoG, no extra gear is needed. Orb of Radiance and Zhandul's Orb would just need to have changed artwork and names to Staff of Radiance and Zhandul's Staff. Also some basic Attack Power for each of four staves will have to be added - not a big issue I suppose. If player clicks "cast" on staff without selecting any runes it would be considered as melee attack with staff.

3. Staves are suitable for reach weapon (like spears), so Mages, who are usually in a second row, could still use them effectively.

4. Mage smiting enemies with a staff doesn't feel wrong. I believe even BobT36 won't deny it ;-)

That said, I agree that such 0-mana, low damage spells (like sparks or something) are worth considering.

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