Grimrock with hex tiles

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Zo Kath Ra
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Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by Zo Kath Ra » Tue May 08, 2012 9:56 pm

The dungeons in LoG are made of square tiles, because that's how Dungeon Master did it.
And Dungeon Master did it because computers back then weren't fast enough for anything else.

But Grimrock has a real 3D engine.
It could be modified to use hexagonal tiles.
Hex tiles are usually seen in top-down strategy games.
I've never seen them in first-person games, but I don't see why it shouldn't work.
(and then there's an even more minimalistic option: triangles)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_ti ... ar_tilings

stepsongrapes
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by stepsongrapes » Tue May 08, 2012 10:06 pm

Zo Kath Ra wrote:The dungeons in LoG are made of square tiles, because that's how Dungeon Master did it.
And Dungeon Master did it because computers back then weren't fast enough for anything else.

But Grimrock has a real 3D engine.
It could be modified to use hexagonal tiles.
Hex tiles are usually seen in top-down strategy games.
I've never seen them in first-person games, but I don't see why it shouldn't work.
(and then there's an even more minimalistic option: triangles)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_ti ... ar_tilings
What benefit would this have? Hex tiles provide for more angles (which, of the tile shapes, provides the most free-form like movement), but with the trade-off of irregular edges. It's fine for depicting large maps where the center is the focus, not the edges. A dungeon is much more about the walls (i.e., the edges of a map).

Your post makes the assumption that Dungeon Master wanted to uses hexes, but couldn't. I think that's a false assumption- the benefit is not self-evidentand you've provided none. Frankly, I also disagree with your premise that computers back then couldn't handle hexes in DM: why the not?

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gambit37
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by gambit37 » Tue May 08, 2012 11:30 pm

There's absolutely ZERO point making a game like this to use hexagons. You'd need 6 direction keys, as well as the two turn keys. You may as well just remove all tiles, give the player free movement and call it, oh I don't know, Skyrim or something.

Why is everyone so intent on making the tile based dungeon crawler into something else? Almost Human only just brought it back, and already some people are trying to turn it into a completely different type of game. It's just bonkers.

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Thels
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by Thels » Tue May 08, 2012 11:33 pm

The great thing about square grid is that the edges of each square are aligned. The edges of hexes are not, so walls would either look ridiculous or break the grid. in addition, you can't have 90 degree turns, unless you force people to keep on turning left and right.

Hexes are nice for large battle grids, not for dungeon crawls.

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Sir_Veillance
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by Sir_Veillance » Tue May 08, 2012 11:37 pm

Zo Kath Ra wrote: Hex tiles are usually seen in top-down strategy games.
And let's leave them to top down games.
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Brodie301
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by Brodie301 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:17 am

That game already exist it comes out in a few days it's called Diablo3.
You just can't see the hex outlines.
Hex games are the worst.
The FORCE is with me!!!

\/4n!ll4 ][c3
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by \/4n!ll4 ][c3 » Wed May 09, 2012 8:38 am

hexagonal grids are generally reserved for things where combat is the focus, as it has certain advantages and disadvantages for all parties involved. however, it doesnt work at all well with the generally accepted 4-way directional control in video games (forward, backward, left, and right). all 3d video games (and some 2d) use this exact same control method, albeit in modified versions.

changing this game to use hexagonal tiles would mean that players would need a way to quickly, easily, and subtly change their facing direction, which the only way to do that effectively is with a mouse (mouselook ftw), or with an analog stick that accomplishes the same goal (like console games). now, there is nothing wrong with this control scheme, as it works quite well and many many people are fond of it, but for a game like grimrock, which constantly clicking character actions and inventory items and spell runes and all that good stuff, with the way the game plays out, it would just be a mess of an interface, requiring either multiple hotkeys that a player would have to remember that would bog down their capacity to play the game quickly, or a mouselook toggle key that would have to be pressed far too frequently, resulting in just as much frustration.

hex grids are generally associated with slower, more calculated games, because of the pros and cons players have to weigh before making a movement choice, which square grids are used for faster paced games because they require less in-depth thought because it uses a rudimentary system.

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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by QuickFox » Wed May 09, 2012 9:03 am

All the fallout games before 3 used a hex-based tile system, and they were pretty good games.

-however, the early fallout games were also turn-based, and used an isometric perspective, whereas Grimrock is both real-time and first-person perspective.

Im not saying it couldnt work, though there are a few arbitrary points that would have to be determined first:

*would the player facing be aligned edge-on or point-on? ie. would a player face the flat edge of a hex, making their only forward movement/attack option be against a single tile, or would they face a point, making the need to distinguish between a move/attack towards a front-left or front-right adjacent hex?

*there would need to be 6 keys for movement and 2 for turning; WASD + QE just wouldnt cut it. For this reason, facing point-on would make more sense since you could use WE-AD-ZX for movement since they are arranged in a rough hex-pattern, and QR for turning. It would make moving a lot more complex though; the majority of players are already familiar with movement using WASD, which combined with 2 additional keys for turning rather than using a mouse already makes key-fumbling a reality in timed movement puzzled and hectic combats, but transitioning to a WEADZX movement would add an extra layer of difficulty on top of that.

*attacking: I have established that facing point-on makes more sense for movement, but what about for attacking? how would you be able to distinguish which front-adjacent hex you wanted your party to attack? currently you attack by right-clicking the weapon held by the party member, and they attack the front-aligned square... for this to work for hexes, you would need a separate key-binding to attack front-left and front-right, which could be bound to R & L mouse buttons (since a gaming mouse with extra buttons cannot be a requirement for normal gameplay) and the normal behaviour of the left mouse button (taking/giving objects from/into the player's hand) would have to be modified, perhaps to a click+drag.

For the reasons I just outlined, hex-based really WOULDNT WORK for grimrock, or any other real-time FPS; it only makes sense for games that are turn-based and/or use an isometric perspective.

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Thels
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by Thels » Wed May 09, 2012 11:37 am

Brodie301 wrote:That game already exist it comes out in a few days it's called Diablo3.
You just can't see the hex outlines.
Hex games are the worst.
You know, well built criticism is always more useful than plain simple bashing. Hex games aren't the worst just because they are hex games. Some of the most popular strategy games, both on the computer and on the table, are based on hexes.

I also don't think real-time or turn-based matters too much. What matters is that navigating over hexes in first person is rather tricky. If you look at the map from above, and you say, I want to go from X to Y, you simply count the number of tiles in between, and it doesn't matter how many turns or curves you make. If you actually have to move in the correct direction each step, you're turning like mad.

That and walls besides the hex grid just don't work very well.

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Billick
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Re: Grimrock with hex tiles

Post by Billick » Wed May 09, 2012 2:13 pm

If you put Grimrock on hex tiles, it would be a totally different game.
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