2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by 1varangian » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:46 pm

King Semos wrote:I think a lot of the tactics come into how you build your characters, more so than how you use them. In normal mode I can pretty much face tank anything because I build my characters well. I equip them properly, and use spells like fire shield when I should. Typically, Ogres, Wardens and Goromorgs are the toughest monsters to fight. If you use potions, magic wards, and good old frost bombs, you really have no reason to go and kite one of them in a 2x2 square at all. Earlier on things like Uggardians and Cave Crabs can be tough, but the same game intentional tactics apply. The only thing I really kite are the nasty Herders, for good reason.
Yes, we should keep in mind that LoG is a party based RPG. I also try to build right and have a party that works well together. On normal it's quite possible to tank most enemies and using your resources (bombs, potions, items with charges) is fun. But the combat is already unexciting because you know you can always resort to strafing. Self imposed limitations never work because you know you are in full control.. it's a feeling you can't get rid of that just makes the game less exciting.

Giving the player an exploit like the easy strafe dodge just goes against everything that makes party based RPG's fun. If it was a solo game it would be ok, but even then I would like a skill requirement to pull off the manual dodging so reliably without provoking any attacks of opportunity.

Megami
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Megami » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:49 pm

Noone wants to remove strafing from the game but currently the 2x2 is like IDDQD in Doom. It requires very minimal timing so about everyone is capable of doing it. That's the core of the problem. Compare it to backpedalling in narrow corridors... it at least requires a player to memorize the way back so he/she doesn't end up in a dead end which means heavy casualties or even game over on hard (well at least with oldschool on).

Kostas
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Kostas » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:03 pm

Attacks of Opportunity sounds great, but lets not forget that in EotB 2 where some enemies could strafe attack you or if you attacked with more than 1 weapon could counter attack you before you moved (sometimes) the enemies were much weaker than you or at best your equals (especially since you could max all stats at char creation). Even bosses were not stronger than your whole party (in DnD terms).

But if you limit the 2x2 dance in LoG I "demand" an ALL ATTACK button and easier spellcasting micro (perhaps longer cast cooldowns with stronger spells).

Blue
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Blue » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:05 pm

i like the current strafing mecanics in grimrock alot but it is boring with just 1 enemy, and the idea of going for semi tank build characters sounds cool to, opening up for many more builds but maybe it has to be seperated into a different game choice?

putting it into the current game on hard, would break way to many other builds, or their have to change so many things, might be better to just do it with mods.

slow character movement speed to 1/4 off orginal when monsters are in line off sight, giveing 1.5 or 2 skills points extra pr lvl and buff armor points a little??

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Saice
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Saice » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:42 pm

1varangian wrote:
Saice wrote:
Whisper wrote:Thing is with current 2x2 dancing system - your choice of starting party, your skill selection, your stats, your equipped items - they don't really matter much compared to your 2x2 dancing skill.

What topic starter say: your skill in 2x2 dance is 1000 times more important then any choice you do in character building, character equipement, character stats/skills, party composition.
The same can be said about your puzzle solving abilities.

The issue is there is no real easy fix to the combat system since it was built with this in mind from the get go. You would need to overhaul the whole system making it so mobility did not mater and skills, stats, and gear did. But Then your combats would be Step up to monster stand there and click your attacks until you win or lose.
I think the optimal and most engaging system is somewhere between. Movement needs to matter but it just can't be > all. I don't think anyone is advocating a system where you just stand still and click, that would be a different game.

I'd like it if it was possible to play a party of 2 Rogues with movement skills, strafing like a ninja as is, or a balanced party of 4 that wouldn't be quite so stealthy but had better dynamics and could stand toe to toe with monsters.
And I agree something can be done to make combat more challanging. But I feel better AI and encounter building is where it can be done over changing the core combat machincs all that much.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
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Eobersig
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Eobersig » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 am

Saice wrote:... And I agree something can be done to make combat more challanging. But I feel better AI and encounter building is where it can be done over changing the core combat machincs all that much.
I don't even think many people here want to change the combat mechanics per se - I'd rather see the elements of combat, skill tree and gear choice getting better aligned with each other.

Here's an example: how many people have the skill to wear heavy armour without getting a penalty to evasion? I reckon few people will have that skill. It's just "better" to push your skill points into your weapon of choice than to push your skill points into the armour tree. Thus two aspects of character building (in this example: armour skill tree and heavy armour gear) have relatively little value. And it makes sense too, when you can avoid getting hit then there's no need to evade or to mitigate the damage anyway.

Another example: how many people have put skill points into staff defense? I reckon few have. That's another skill tree with little value.

Thus I'd suggest one of these two solutions:
- Either make the 2x2 strafe dance (and perhaps kiting/hiding behind doors?) less efficient, so that putting points into defensive skills (and wearing heavy armour) makes more sense
- Or get rid of the defensive skills trees and heavy gear and instead have skill trees and gear that influences the characters ability to dance or kite.

:)

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Saice
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Saice » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:06 am

Eobersig wrote:Thus I'd suggest one of these two solutions:
- Either make the 2x2 strafe dance (and perhaps kiting/hiding behind doors?) less efficient, so that putting points into defensive skills (and wearing heavy armour) makes more sense
- Or get rid of the defensive skills trees and heavy gear and instead have skill trees and gear that influences the characters ability to dance or kite.

:)
The frist part can be done with better AI. If mobs linked up and used flanking more or used some sort of retreat and regroup mechanic. You would still have a highly moble based combat with out spinning the mob in cicrles = win.

I would not get rid of skills. I found them useful (check my link for end game stats) and would not want them removed.

Gear was an issue but it was also a balncing act.

But I will maintain better AI is the key to giving us more of a chanallage.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
My end game stats LoG 1st play through

Lowlightt
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Lowlightt » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:24 am

oodyboo wrote: And primarily it's too easy because all the non-spell attacks are simple instant clicks so only mages take any player focus with the potential of interrupting the player's strafing rhythm. Strafing gets much tougher when you have something else to focus on, and that's why I would personally try to make the attack system more engaging.


This is key right here. The goal to make combat more fun is to distract the player more while circle strafing because lets face it, its as intended. One way I see it is to make warrior/rogue characters more engaging, as mages can already be distracting so much so many people only cast one spell they pre prepared before the fight.


Different Ideas include


Special Attacks instead of making them auto instead make them player skill based. Which goes into my other idea



Instead of having characters attack on click instead give characters a two click attack. The first click prepares an attack with the equipped weapon or PA (prepare attack) and the second click releases it or AR(attack release). Give the characters a generic power meter, I would prefer a circle of course but a straight bar works just as well. Each bar will have a moving sweet zone that you need to time the AR to hit. Circles imo would fit overtop the character portraits better. Points into skills will of course either decrease the speed of the attack bar or increase the size of the sweet zone. Special attacks from weapons will only proc on sweet zone hits.


With this idea you move special attacks to something the player has control over (ie direct player involvement) plus you make attacking something that the player needs to concentration on which in turn will add additional distraction to the game. Make it an additional mode and call it "Pro Mode"


So dex as a core stat will make attack bars (or circles) easier to use, while str will increase the dmg of these attacks.

Now it could be implemented with or with out die rolls for to hit, thus a sweet spot is always a hit or it could take into count the enemies evasion values and even a sweet spot hit could still miss or some form of that.

PowerMeter
{__________________________________________________________________________}



Example
Outside of sweetspot hit (0% - 40% of to hit)
Close to sweetspot (70% - 80% of to hit)
Sweet Spot (90% - 100% of to hit)
Direct center on sweetspot (110% of to hit)

With the above example the game would still calculate hits to the enemy in the normal way its done now, but players would have control on how much of a to hit bonus they get on there attacks.




Things to discus about this idea



1. Attack speed
Normally you would want as skill goes up attack speed to increase but the idea that skill goes up its makes it easier to use the Power Meter could go against that?

Possible solutions to this that I can think include that the speed of the Power Meter never changes but the size of the sweetzone does increase. This could allow for the faster combat people enjoy with out much change in the current skill trees regarding attack speed.

Another solution is that at lower skill levels the Power Meter instead of being fast is just inconsistent. Sometimes you get a slow attack other times you get a fast attack ext. Meaning you can't have consistent timing on the attack bar, vs at higher skill levels the attack bar becomes eventually perfectly consistent and at a fast speed (coupled with the increased sweet spot zone to make your character better able to handle faster attack speeds, (hopefully with the idea that you trained your hand eye coordination to an appropriate level with playing up this point).

2. Power Meter
How should the power meter be displayed to the player in the ui for both comfort, utility and ease of use at the same time not distracting the player?

This is of course all opinion and taste really. I myself would prefer it as a circle that appears over the character portrait that is using it.


3. Goal
Will this provide engaging combat with out changing the games core combat?

I think it will but we should discuss if this would be in the spirit of the game itself. I think it might be a neat addition as a game option mode maybe as like I earlier called it "Pro mode" or maybe "Combat Pro Mode" or such.


4. Distraction
Do you think this is adequate distraction to the player to undermine both there dancing technique (2x2) and there memory (back tracking the dungeon while attacking)

I feel it will be more so to the point that it might be to much for some players (hence why I think it should be a game option)



So as with everything discuss the idea.

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Loktofeit
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by Loktofeit » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:40 pm

1varangian wrote: This is not an action game and shouldn't try to be one... right now it's an odd blend of stat based RPG combat and twitch based dodging that negates the need for said stats completely. Combat should be either or.. if it's trying to be both it won't be the best it can. It ends up a flawed RPG system and simplistic action.
While many should find that a logical assessment, there is a noticeable divide here between those interested in an RPG and those interested in a Dungeon Master clone. The latter being more common.

Goffmog
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Goffmog » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:15 pm

Games like dungeon Master and Legend of Grimrock just aren't about character building, it's a nice little sideshow but not the main event. That's it. IMO I would have put fewer stats (certainly visibly) into Grimrock than where in DM, not more.

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