2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
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SodanKerjuu
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by SodanKerjuu » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:22 pm

1varangian wrote: I would suggest simplifying the RPG elements of the game because they don't matter anyway and can only gimp your characters if you make the wrong choices.
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I for one would like the RPG elements come in stronger and have an actual impact on gameplay.

May I point the obvious contradiction in your argument:
If you make player skill matter less and character build up matter more, wouldn't it then lead to even more situations where you can gimp your gameplay by skilling wrong or not finding good loot from the secrets?

As it stands currently player skill can overcome your party disadvantage.

For my own argument, even being an RPG, I favor that it feels like I am winning the enemies, not because I put a skill point in the right category.
The changes you are asking for would drive the game further away from the old-school dungeon crawlers and more into modern stat-vs-stat combats, this was not the scope of this game.

1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by 1varangian » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:24 pm

oodyboo wrote:There is also huge room for improvement with the combat system by expanding on it, not destroying it. Additional combat complexity in the form of increased variety of options and 'smarter' monster AI could go a long way towards resolving the simplicity of the current combat dance. Simple AI changes or even just adjusting the placement/characteristics of monsters could go a long way towards breaking up a monotonous combat dance rather than simply disabling the movement dimension.

I think this is a better approach for Grimrock than replacing its relatively unique and defining feature with a character-based combat challenge like most RPGs. I much prefer the current "omnipotent" combat trick that requires some alertness and timing, and adds a second dimension to combat (moving while attacking) than the idea of one dimensional "wizardy (final fantasy for you youngin)" press fight fight fight and your character's effectiveness is entirely based on the number values representing virtual skills. There are plenty of other RPGs like this on the market.
Have to revisit this last bit as I fully agree with it.

I wouldn't want the movement dimension of Grimrock combat disabled. I don't want combat where you just sit there trading damage. Definitely not. Moving in combat, checking enemy movement and positioning yourself right are key elements of the genre. But the monsters need a way to be able to fight you back. Fighting multiple enemies tends to work better because you can get cornered but the 1v1 scenarios are trivially easy for the player.

[end game spoiler below]


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Think of the final fight of the game that was basically a big mess of things for challenge. The challenge came from everything but the boss himself. I'd like to be able to play out an epic duel against a boss. But circle strafing a lone end boss for 2 minutes obviously would be pretty anti-climactic. That's where the weakness of the current system is at its most obvious.

1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by 1varangian » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:32 pm

SodanKerjuu wrote:
1varangian wrote: I would suggest simplifying the RPG elements of the game because they don't matter anyway and can only gimp your characters if you make the wrong choices.
...
I for one would like the RPG elements come in stronger and have an actual impact on gameplay.

May I point the obvious contradiction in your argument:
If you make player skill matter less and character build up matter more, wouldn't it then lead to even more situations where you can gimp your gameplay by skilling wrong or not finding good loot from the secrets?

As it stands currently player skill can overcome your party disadvantage.
You don't considering speccing your characters right player skill?

There's hand-eye coordination and rhythm, then there's understanding the mechanics, building right and managing your game resources. All of that can be considered player skill.

As it stands, player skill (not that it's difficult to deny enemy attacks) just makes the skills pointless in most situations.

1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by 1varangian » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:50 pm

Edited first suggestion in my original post to sound less extreme. It could have been read as "disable movement completely" which was not the purpose.
- Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you, depending on its speed and agility. (There could be skills to increase Evasion bonus against movement provoked attacks, or skills that let you strafe safely). Extensive circle strafing would still be highly effective and reward manual skill, but not deny the monsters 100% of their attacks.

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Disasterrific
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Disasterrific » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:27 pm

How funny would it be if the monsters 2x2 strafed you - like an attack and get out of the way attack, then they strafed round your sides and took you from the flanks?

MASKOAA
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by MASKOAA » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:42 pm

Disasterrific wrote:How funny would it be if the monsters 2x2 strafed you - like an attack and get out of the way attack, then they strafed round your sides and took you from the flanks?
Those giant flys do a pretty damn good job

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Stamm
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Stamm » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:35 pm

Disasterrific wrote:How funny would it be if the monsters 2x2 strafed you - like an attack and get out of the way attack, then they strafed round your sides and took you from the flanks?
Yes and while we are at it, how about being able do dividing your team and attack from several sides simultaneously? :twisted:

The bottom line: which is exciting when you play and which isn't. Either too hard or too easy. In Dungeon Master me and Sonja had developed our fighting skills to the level that in the second or third round we could could kill the dragon by kicking it behind for ten minutes. :D But that did not mean that it wasn't very challenging and fantastic game.

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BlueLegion
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by BlueLegion » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:40 pm

Stamm wrote:Yes and while we are at it, how about being able do dividing your team and attack from several sides simultaneously? :twisted:
I know that wasn't serious but let's not forget that our prisoners are chained together. That's the biggest reason behind walking in formation in the first place.

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Stamm
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by Stamm » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:07 pm

BlueLegion wrote:
Stamm wrote:Yes and while we are at it, how about being able do dividing your team and attack from several sides simultaneously? :twisted:
I know that wasn't serious but let's not forget that our prisoners are chained together. That's the biggest reason behind walking in formation in the first place.
Yes they are. And that is a disadvantage compared to monsters who often attack in numbers. In fair compensation the prisoners can move a bit quicker and dodge blows. It's all about the right balance.

(Of course in real time combat it would be distracting and useless to "divide forces". You cannot in real time reasonably control the moving and fighting of four members separately. )

\/4n!ll4 ][c3
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by \/4n!ll4 ][c3 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:12 pm

1varangian wrote:I think the effectiveness of the strafing tactic undermines the whole RPG / character building aspect of the game. Crabs, ogres.. they all go down without ever even getting to attack you. Defensive abilities and stats become meaningless. I think there's a lot of room for improvement here.

Suggestions: [edited to sound less extreme]

- Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you, depending on its speed and agility. (There could be skills to increase Evasion bonus against movement provoked attacks, or skills that let you strafe safely). Extensive circle strafing would still be highly effective and reward manual skill, but not deny the monsters 100% of their attacks.

- Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking. Daggers could have less/no delay so Rogues could still feel like ninjas. The delay could also help make weapons feel different - slow heavy hitting vs. small and fast. (i.e. click on Great Hammer.. build up sound effect plays.. 2 seconds later the attack lands with a massive thud)

- Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances (say, someone is grabbed by a tentacle). Or have the incapacitated party member be auto-killed if the rest of the party flees instead of helps.

- Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.

- Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe

- Make charging monsters a bit smarter

almost everything about the game's combat/progression mechanics would have to be reworked if even one of these suggestions were added.

rather than looking at it like "2x2 strafing undermines character building," you should view it as "everything i know about old games does not apply to this one." your characters are not super-powerful, as want to be in many other types of RPG games, and as a result, you have to be better at avoiding damage completely as opposed to outlasting damage. every bit of combat in this game hints exactly at this premise. if you cannot learn to adapt to this model of combat, you will have a decidedly more difficult game experience.

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