2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

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1varangian
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2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

Post by 1varangian » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:35 pm

I think the effectiveness of the strafing tactic undermines the whole RPG / character building aspect of the game. Crabs, ogres.. they all go down without ever even getting to attack you. Defensive abilities and stats become meaningless. I think there's a lot of room for improvement here.

Suggestions: [edited to sound less extreme]

- Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you, depending on its speed and agility. (There could be skills to increase Evasion bonus against movement provoked attacks, or skills that let you strafe safely). Extensive circle strafing would still be highly effective and reward manual skill, but not deny the monsters 100% of their attacks.

- Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking. Daggers could have less/no delay so Rogues could still feel like ninjas. The delay could also help make weapons feel different - slow heavy hitting vs. small and fast. (i.e. click on Great Hammer.. build up sound effect plays.. 2 seconds later the attack lands with a massive thud)

- Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances (say, someone is grabbed by a tentacle). Or have the incapacitated party member be auto-killed if the rest of the party flees instead of helps.

- Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.

- Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe

- Make charging monsters a bit smarter
Last edited by 1varangian on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 6 times in total.

MASKOAA
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by MASKOAA » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:39 pm

No..

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BlueLegion
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by BlueLegion » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:42 pm

I like the idea with being grabbed by a tentacle and, to some degree, the weapon swing charge time, but the rest is not really good. If you can move faster than your enemy, why should that not be an advantage in battle? It wouldn't make sense if you could fight a fast spider just as well as a slow snail without much difference. Also, a few enemies can strafe themselves, or attack sideways (ogres, ice lizards), which somewhat keeps the combat pace fresh. What you suggest would bland all combat down to a very simplistic bland battle system.

But the most important thing: If you can't move behind the enemies, you can't backstab!

PS: the suggested sweep attack could be interesting, but should be reserved for strong enemies that do not appear in large numbers (like ogres) and it should have a slight charge up time so you can back off just in time.

in short: Enemy abilities like sweep attacks and grabbing a party member could be a good addition in the future, but other than that the combat is fine as it is.

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Kailos
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by Kailos » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 pm

Yes, it is an issue and I have made similar suggestions in the expanded combat thread.

Sweep attacks and status ailments that slow your party sound like the easiest options while tweaking weapon cooldown may be somewhat a more in depth change. Being able to strike diagonally would also mitigate the problem, especially if it forced the player to time their movements for making their dodge once the monster has begun their attack animation. Otherwise it would just track them and hit anyways.

1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by 1varangian » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:59 pm

BlueLegion wrote:I like the idea with being grabbed by a tentacle and, to some degree, the weapon swing charge time, but the rest is not really good. If you can move faster than your enemy, why should that not be an advantage in battle? It wouldn't make sense if you could fight a fast spider just as well as a slow snail without much difference. Also, a few enemies can strafe themselves, or attack sideways (ogres, ice lizards), which somewhat keeps the combat pace fresh. What you suggest would bland all combat down to a very simplistic bland battle system.
To me, doing the same fail-safe strafe in every fight is the very definition of simplistic and bland.

This is not an action game and shouldn't try to be one... right now it's an odd blend of stat based RPG combat and twitch based dodging that negates the need for said stats completely. Combat should be either or.. if it's trying to be both it won't be the best it can. It ends up a flawed RPG system and simplistic action.

Might sound a bit critical, I still think it's a good game. :)

1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by 1varangian » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:03 am

The tentacles already grab you... watch for handcuffs appearing on the portrait meaning that character can't attack. It just doesn't matter at all because you just move away and wait for the status effect to time out and resume fight. Feels like cheating to me.

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Jack Dandy
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by Jack Dandy » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:05 am

I dunno- the game IS an action-RPG at the end of the day.

However, I definitely feel the combat needs some spicing up.

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BlueLegion
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by BlueLegion » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:07 am

1varangian wrote:
BlueLegion wrote:I like the idea with being grabbed by a tentacle and, to some degree, the weapon swing charge time, but the rest is not really good. If you can move faster than your enemy, why should that not be an advantage in battle? It wouldn't make sense if you could fight a fast spider just as well as a slow snail without much difference. Also, a few enemies can strafe themselves, or attack sideways (ogres, ice lizards), which somewhat keeps the combat pace fresh. What you suggest would bland all combat down to a very simplistic bland battle system.
To me, doing the same fail-safe strafe in every fight is the very definition of simplistic and bland.

This is not an action game and shouldn't try to be one... right now it's an odd blend of stat based RPG combat and twitch based dodging that negates the need for said stats completely. Combat should be either or.. if it's trying to be both it won't be the best it can. It ends up a flawed RPG system and simplistic action.

Might sound a bit critical, I still think it's a good game. :)
But that only applies to 1v1 combat anyway. If you face more than one enemy (which is often) you can find yourself cornered or backed to a wall, at which point you have no choice but to tank it.

And be honest. Which combat style is more simplistic and bland? Grimrock or "press A repeatedly until enemy is dead"? This game actually requires you to have at least some skill in using your surroundings, which is smart and not simplistic.

1varangian
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by 1varangian » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:20 am

I almost never find myself cornered. 99% of the time you can fight on your terms by bringing the enemy where you want them. The skill to use your surroundings is there regardless of tile strafing to dodge.

If there were rules of engagement, the skill to choose your battleground and successfully navigate through several enemies would actually become more important since a bad move would cost you. It would add more depth to combat and be the opposite of simplistic and bland.

As for standing still nuking it out with someone 1v1 - tactics should be the main consideration here. You have a team of 4 and it should be about the choice and combinations of character builds / weapons / spells / equipment / special moves that decide the outcome. Player reflexes will always factor in since you need to be ready to click asap after cooldowns are finished.

MASKOAA
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Re: 2x2 strafing undermines character building

Post by MASKOAA » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:22 am

Please God no.....no one wants Final Fantasy combat.

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