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[Darklord]

LoG is a tiny tiny tiny game, honestly.

You know I've spent longer on LoG than some AAA titles. (60+ hours for first playthrough)

This isn't really that short a game!

Daniel.

[Sabatasso]

I finished my first run-through in three sittings, about 3-4 hours each. In terms "physical" size, it equals Eye of the Beholder 1. But in complexity it does not. I spent several weeks on EOB1 on my first play-through, and the lack of maps is only a small part of that. It may be because I'm "smarter" now, but I also think the puzzles in LoG are shorter, or "simpler" in some manner, no offense intended.

All in all, LoG is a great game that will stand as a pillar of hope for all dungeon crawler fans for years to come, granted that we get a good level editor. We will also most likely get remakes of all the great dungeon crawlers of the past, with or without LoG's character system. It will be great, and I can hardly wait.

[NakedGranny]

LoG is a tiny tiny tiny game, honestly.

You know I've spent longer on LoG than some AAA titles. (60+ hours for first playthrough)

This isn't really that short a game!

Daniel.

i'm going to say this as honestly as possible: in order to spend 60 hours on a playthrough LoG, the player must be either retarded, or leaving it running while they sleep overnight. it's possible that you're simply lying.

whatever the case, you are quite far away from the typical player experience.

[Baroque]

I would prefer not to see the devs go all big business on the sequel. Do you really want them to sell out and become all about the money like every major gaming company? You want to have DLC weapons, hats, pets, and all that garbage? I'd rather pay a small amount for a small game that the devs loved, than pay full price for a game i'll never finish because i'm not willing to spend even more money on all the DLC. screw that, i have a great distaste for the way gaming is headed, and I question why you would want Grimrock to go that route.

You sound like a business major.. but just remember, what's better for the business is not necessarily better for the consumer, and you are a consumer in this case.

[\/4n!ll4 ][c3]

its definitely because you are smarter. there are only so many kinds of puzzles you can come up with, and once you have played 3 or 4 games with a similar type puzzle, its just a matter of going through the motions. the hardest part is always figuring out the mechanics of how a given puzzle will work. after you have that down, its just a matter of doing it, and player skill takes over, which is a new level of limitation in and of itself.

the level design of this game isnt lacking. its there, and its very good. and some of the "surprise, youre about to die" moments keep it interesting as well. the game's biggest problem is its broken skill and combat mechanics system, where pretty much the only way to have a decent chance is to master only one skill.

[affa]

to edit my above post, and converse at the same time...

there actually was one puzzle i had to consult a guide on, and that was the mage's entrance on level 6. i could find absolutely nothing at all to give me a hint at what to do there.

odd. for me,

SpoilerShow

as soon as i saw the name, 'mage's entrance', i knew i had to cast a spell. it was solved before i even knew it was a puzzle.

also, spinner puzzles are stupid. they worked in older games because they were rudimentary, but in games today, where compasses are standard, they are gimmicks, and nothing more.

well, a proper spinner maze could be in a compass dead zone. just saying. and i've been in some wonderfully devious spinner mazes back in the day.

the teleporter puzzles in this game though have given me quite a brain exercise, which is fun, as well as some of the multi-lever/switch puzzles. they arent difficult, but they require an amount of thought, which is nice.

agreed. i liked all of the puzzles, and the sheer amount of them. i just wanted some that were even harder. in most cases, i knew exactly what i needed to do. part of this is because a lot of them built on each other, and i think the difficult ones had too good of hints, too close to the puzzle. i'd much rather see cryptic hints on the walls (the dragon is hungry for it's gold) that don't come into play for, say, 3 levels, then 'the dragon is hungry' right next to the dragon it's talking about. one is a cryptic puzzle, the other is ok, let's start clicking inventory onto the dragon.

to the maze of shadows, that place was far to easy, it really only took me 2 tries to get through it. i dont have a mage in my team, so that wasnt an option. which i guess means unless there is a way to deactivate it, ill miss a lot of the items in that area.

i had a mage, but went through it without one first to map it properly.
not a real spoiler:

SpoilerShow

the mage just turns off the lights, making the path in darkness REALLY obvious. absolutely unnecessary, since the maze is so simple to begin with. it's doubtful you missed any items if you worked your way through it.

as far as complexity of the dungeons, a lot of people will probably scoff at me, but phantasy star 2 i think has had the most difficult dungeons of any video game i have played, and i have played a lot. eye of the beholder, dungeon hack, warriors of the sun, wizardry, shining in the darkness. ive been through the list. nothing beats the towers on dezolis or the dams on motavia for frustration.

i think i played PS2? but i don't remember it well enough to speak on it.

i found these Grimlock dungeons well designed, just too easy for my taste. i was always moving forward, never once 'stuck'. any puzzles that might have given me pause had nearby scrolls that gave away the answer too obviously for my taste.

actually, my favorite puzzle might have been

SpoilerShow

the one with 4 obscure clues... the broadhead arrow was one of the answers. i liked that one. nice and cryptic. that one passes my test, it took me awhile to figure out what one or two of them might be referring to.

[Flying Ace]

if you're wanting a huge maze like build just wait for the map editor/tools its an almost guarantee someone will make something on this scale haha

[NakedGranny]

I would prefer not to see the devs go all big business on the sequel. Do you really want them to sell out and become all about the money like every major gaming company? You want to have DLC weapons, hats, pets, and all that garbage? I'd rather pay a small amount for a small game that the devs loved, than pay full price for a game i'll never finish because i'm not willing to spend even more money on all the DLC. screw that, i have a great distaste for the way gaming is headed, and I question why you would want Grimrock to go that route.

You sound like a business major.. but just remember, what's better for the business is not necessarily better for the consumer, and you are a consumer in this case.

don't be silly.

you think AH made this game because they were bored? did you not notice that they are SELLING it from GOG and Steam as well as their site? of course they're doing it for money! they need to buy lunch just as much as you do, and you did pay "full price" for the game no matter what size it is -- because that's the price they offered it at. you sound like an ideologue looking for an excuse to hate on "big business" game development.

it should now occur to you that it's entirely possible (indeed, probable) that AH can make a damn good sequel after hiring a ton of people or being taken under the wing of a studio with more resources. this is not "selling out", but even if it were, it's their prerogative. if you don't think they should make money from their efforts, then don't buy their product, but just remember, what the consumer thinks is better for him isn't always.

[marshill]

you think AH made this game because they were bored? did you not notice that they are SELLING it from GOG and Steam as well as their site? of course they're doing it for money! they need to buy lunch just as much as you do, and you did pay "full price" for the game no matter what size it is -- because that's the price they offered it at. you sound like an ideologue looking for an excuse to hate on "big business" game development.

I thought the same thing when I read his post. The idea that you would put together a whole team of programmers to simply "donate" their time OWS style in order to make a great game simply to benefit humanity in some kind of anti-capitalist socialist utopia is nonsense. Now AH has the money and resources to do something AWESOME and I sure hope they go into "business mode" because only then can they make a massive, awesome game that I have been craving. But AH has to stay true to the genre they created. If they use their resources to make a game that isn't true to the flavor of LOG, then they could crash and burn. So, grow your business...make it larger, but stay true to what got you there. I have been looking for 2 years for a really great RPG, and LOG is the close to what I would love to see. I'm so glad LOG was successful because it means they now have more MONEY and more BUSINESS to develop something larger, grander, bigger.

If you want a team of highly skilled programmers, you have to PAY THEM MONEY. Occupy Wall Street sounds good to those who will never create a path to success in life, and need to suckle resources from others. AH has created that path to independence and freedom. The DEVS don't have to work for someone else...they could simply run AH as their new business, and make it profitable. Their path (a business path) is now before them. They would be crazy not to forge ahead full speed. So yes, business is good. Very good. Many successful businesses begin with an idea, and where the idea is nurtured through low cost, lots of time, and heart and soul. If that idea succeeds, and the money is flowing, then you can increase your resources to further create. I really hope AH becomes highly successful, and not fade into nothing with a one-hit-wonder as most indie companies do.

If AH has the attitude of some of the people posting here (oh don't be a business, stay small...stay tiny..do it for love, not for money)...that is the kind of attitude that will SINK AH, guaranteed. I sure hope AH doesn't listen to the anti-business crowd. That kind of thinking is what will keep someone as a pawn for life. People that think like that (anti-business) will work for someone else their whole life. They will never own anything, run anything, they will just be someone else's errand boy. The movers and shakers -are the ones who rise up, and succeed, and that requires strong business acumen.

[M.M]

I agree with OP that dungeons coul be more complex. I play it old-school and i gave up mapping by myself for as for now (lv7 at damn iron door), there was no need for it.

The only problem i had was with "westermost" scroll". It is not easy to find anything "westermost" without a map, and compass suddenly becomes essential.

Getting lost is not an option.