Grimrock

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:20 am**

So I got to the point where I have access to the juicy spells. And my god this is so much fun. Takes some memorizing, but that happens on its own.
Things break when you have puzzle breaking spells like swap and such (especially when you send them into teleporters that you aren't meant to reach yet)

There is one critical thing that has to be fixed though - That annoying sound from wind walker.
For the love of all that is holy, please remove it.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention that the scaling system works great! Monsters are still a menace at higher levels, but still not too strong. (Getting surround is a big deal now)

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:35 pm**

zimberzimber wrote:So I got to the point where I have access to the juicy spells. And my god this is so much fun. Takes some memorizing, but that happens on its own.

Great news

Did you continue your previous save and use the patch system or did you start a new game? If I remember, you had one spell caster in the team of the save file you sent to me. What does your party look like now? Still one caster? In what skills did you choose to invest your points?

zimberzimber wrote:Things break when you have puzzle breaking spells like swap and such (especially when you send them into teleporters that you aren't meant to reach yet)

Did you solve some of the small puzzles requiring those spells and giving some elemental armors and weapons from MinAssets?

zimberzimber wrote:There is one critical thing that has to be fixed though - That annoying sound from wind walker.
For the love of all that is holy, please remove it.

Do you mean it's too loud or do you think it should be completely removed?

zimberzimber wrote:EDIT: Also forgot to mention that the scaling system works great! Monsters are still a menace at higher levels, but still not too strong. (Getting surround is a big deal now)

Good to know, it could be added to orrr3 if it feels balanced. Maybe the +5% to damage health and experience could be changed to x% damage, y% health and z% experience though.

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:07 pm**

AndakRainor wrote:Great news
Did you continue your previous save and use the patch system or did you start a new game? If I remember, you had one spell caster in the team of the save file you sent to me. What does your party look like now? Still one caster? In what skills did you choose to invest your points?

I downloaded the newest version and imported the party I had from last time. But now my mage has 5 points in all spellcasting related skills. Nothing is an issue now - Nature's Blossom + Mirror + Feast and Not a worry in this world!

AndakRainor wrote:Did you solve some of the small puzzles requiring those spells and giving some elemental armors and weapons from MinAssets?

I did, but you often have to guess which receptor is asking for what. Sure, the slimes are a hint, but sometimes there are either no slimes, or something else. The huge orbs were also misleading. First time I saw one I though I had to do something related to it.
But by breaking things I mainly meant sending a Swap Bolt into the teleporter in front of the pyramid, sending you to the desert prematurely

It was funny really. I shot a bolt there, nothing happened for a while, said "meh" and went into the cemetery, reloaded the game a few times, was about to enter the catacombs when I suddenly get teleported into the desert. All mummies and both Golems had their brains turned off because I glitched in there, got a bunch of levels from all that. Good stuff.

AndakRainor wrote:Do you mean it's too loud or do you think it should be completely removed?

It should be removed in my opinion. It serves no purpose and the feeling of getting blown with the wind start turning into an agonizing headache when trying to hear something beyond that. (steps, buttons, monsters, secret walls, etc)

AndakRainor wrote:Good to know, it could be added to orrr3 if it feels balanced. Maybe the +5% to damage health and experience could be changed to x% damage, y% health and z% experience though.

I think no matter how high a monsters stats are, as long as you can move they're not a threat due to Grimrocks natures. Right now, if you get cornered its game over. Maybe increasing animation speeds a little bit with every level? Would probably look awful in higher levels though.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:31 pm**

zimberzimber wrote:But by breaking things I mainly meant sending a Swap Bolt into the teleporter in front of the pyramid, sending you to the desert prematurely
It was funny really. I shot a bolt there, nothing happened for a while, said "meh" and went into the cemetery, reloaded the game a few times, was about to enter the catacombs when I suddenly get teleported into the desert. All mummies and both Golems had their brains turned off because I glitched in there, got a bunch of levels from all that. Good stuff.

Oh that teleporter! (I wondered which unreachable ones you talked about but did not think about this one). Yeah it could be protected by an additional grate or lead to a floor trigger that activates all brains. I think it is the only glitch you can find in Isle of Nex though!

zimberzimber wrote:I think no matter how high a monsters stats are, as long as you can move they're not a threat due to Grimrocks natures. Right now, if you get cornered its game over. Maybe increasing animation speeds a little bit with every level? Would probably look awful in higher levels though.

Animations speed can scale with level but only within a limited margin to still look okay. I think it would be complicated to implement. But scaling cooldowns speed could be interesting.

Also I don't agree with the idea that because a solution exists to beat any monster it makes combat and leveling meaningless, for a few reasons:
- In wow for example, it is possible to clear a new raid the week it is released or maybe in two weeks due to unavoidable damage. In reality that nearly never happens, except for a very limited population of top world guilds players, because "normal" gamers are awful at games

(...and non gamers are worst).
- I have yet to see any youtuber make a let's play of Grimrock and just be good at the game. They all take damage, even when they square dance, some even struggle in easy mode! Also they generally miss most secrets and make poor classes, skills and equipment choices. I always wonder if they are distracted by making a video and commenting in real time, or if the average player is that bad

- As modders we know a lot of details about the game and play test a lot, so that puts us at a higher level.
- I tried (a few minutes) a technique suggested by Minmay against crabs, "tile evasion" where you just have to move back and forward during the monster attack to avoid it in a corridor and still forbid it to move forward and block you in a dead end. I totally failed and as a player, I used frost bombs on that occasion in Grimrock 1.
- Good luck on fighting a monster that can one shot your party and takes 10 minutes to kill with square dancing.
- Isle of Nex has specifically a level design allowing square dancing in all fights, and it forces you to master square dancing, at least in hard mode, as the only viable combat technique (making defensive builds useless). I think what I propose with the spell pack is an viable alternative to that. Even when cornered, you can use smart heals, a taunt spell, damage reduction abilities and various crowd controls. That way I don't have to make sure I add 2x2 rooms everywhere in my own mod maps. A player that would rely only on square dancing in my mod will meet a tragic fate rapidly.

And with this idea of harmless monsters, what is the point of leveling in the first place? Maybe unlocking some required abilities to solve puzzles, and that is not the case in Isle of Nex.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:07 pm**

AndakRainor wrote:Oh that teleporter! (I wondered which unreachable ones you talked about but did not think about this one). Yeah it could be protected by an additional grate or lead to a floor trigger that activates all brains. I think it is the only glitch you can find in Isle of Nex though!

Not just that, I also broke a lot of puzzles. But I'm sure you expected that. Funniest was probably one of your puzzles where you have to walk a long corridor while there are fireballs and lightning bolts flying through it, and you have to time your movement from 'shelter' to 'shelter' to get to the end. I just used the teleportation spell to get to the end when I clicked the button

AndakRainor wrote: - In wow for example, it is possible to clear a new raid the week it is released or maybe in two weeks due to unavoidable damage. In reality that nearly never happens, except for a very limited population of top world guilds players, because "normal" gamers are awful at games (...and non gamers are worst).

Keep forget player skill is a thing. Usually when I think about balance and whats easy/hard I compare it to my own skill because I can't stop thinking "If I can do it, surely everyone else can"

AndakRainor wrote:- I have yet to see any youtuber make a let's play of Grimrock and just be good at the game. They all take damage, even when they square dance, some even struggle in easy mode! Also they generally miss most secrets and make poor classes, skills and equipment choices. I always wonder if they are distracted by making a video and commenting in real time, or if the average player is that bad

Same applies here. Besides, Grimrock is not a very popular game (sadly) so the skillful YouTubers just don't know about its existance

AndakRainor wrote:- As modders we know a lot of details about the game and play test a lot, so that puts us at a higher level.

Exploiting AI has never been so much fun

AndakRainor wrote:- I tried (a few minutes) a technique suggested by Minmay against crabs, "tile evasion" where you just have to move back and forward during the monster attack to avoid it in a corridor and still forbid it to move forward and block you in a dead end. I totally failed and as a player, I used frost bombs on that occasion in Grimrock 1.

Take your wind walker spell into consideration for when you're making monster encounters in your mod. Because with it, its pretty easy.

AndakRainor wrote:- Good luck on fighting a monster that can one shot your party and takes 10 minutes to kill with square dancing.

If a monster can one shot you there is something wrong either with the monsters scaling, or with the parties skill build. If someone built their party right, with proper tanks in the front and damage dealers in the back, they shouldn't get one shot. In general, I see a lot of people adding one shotting in many mods (not just i Grimrock) and in my opinion its a bad habit. Whether its for instakilling monsters or the player.

AndakRainor wrote:- Isle of Nex has specifically a level design allowing square dancing in all fights, and it forces you to master square dancing, at least in hard mode, as the only viable combat technique. I think what I propose with the spell pack is an viable alternative to that. Even when cornered, you can use smart heals, a taunt spell, damage reduction abilities and various crowd controls. That way I don't have to make sure I add 2x2 rooms everywhere in my own mod maps. A player that would rely only on square dancing in my mod will meet a tragic fate rapidly.

Looking forward to that

AndakRainor wrote:And with this idea of harmless monsters, what is the point of leveling in the first place? Maybe unlocking some required abilities to solve puzzles, and that is not the case in Isle of Nex.

To make battles faster and less tedious of course

Monsters are already pushovers in Isle of Nex without the scaling system. They were just a source of XP and a minor annoyance after a while of playing. (for me at least)

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:07 pm**

zimberzimber wrote:Not just that, I also broke a lot of puzzles. But I'm sure you expected that. Funniest was probably one of your puzzles where you have to walk a long corridor while there are fireballs and lightning bolts flying through it, and you have to time your movement from 'shelter' to 'shelter' to get to the end. I just used the teleportation spell to get to the end when I clicked the button

To me the difference is that it is a real glitch. If you found others, let me know! Skipping a puzzle by using a spell without triggering a bugged behavior (like deactivated monsters) is just a normal spell usage. I often tried to put a breaking spell in the same level as the puzzle it can break too. For example, the teleportation bolt scroll is found in the same map as the "path of the eagle" puzzle. Also, for the added fire and lightning puzzle you mentioned, it was intended to be broken by fire and air spells for a fire and air reward, but also doable without high level spells (generally I made easier puzzles for helmets, gloves and boots armor pieces, and more restricted to high level spells puzzles for chest and legs).

zimberzimber wrote:Grimrock is not a very popular game (sadly) so the skillful YouTubers just don't know about its existance

I am also a fan of Alien Isolation, which was more popular I think, and the let's players I saw all had suicidal tendencies in that game too

zimberzimber wrote:Take your wind walker spell into consideration for when you're making monster encounters in your mod. Because with it, its pretty easy.

Good point. Also, when I say the possibility of abusing game mechanics is not really a problem in my opinion, it is because I think it is neither always possible, nor always the best solution. For example, I added the spell "vengeance" that gives primary stats bonuses to champions that scale with damage they take (BEFORE damage reduction effects) and their total health, for defensive builds. With this and healing abilities, you should be able to kill enemies faster than with exploiting IA or animations times.

zimberzimber wrote:If a monster can one shot you there is something wrong either with the monsters scaling, or with the parties skill build. If someone built their party right, with proper tanks in the front and damage dealers in the back, they shouldn't get one shot.

Sure, that means the leveling system is not that useless

That's why I choose to ignore the idea that an unarmed naked level 1 party can punch the Lindworm to death!

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:26 pm**

There are also places where you can get stuck if you were to throw a swap/teleport bolt.
For example - In the pyramid, where the tomb of the guardians (or something like that) door puzzle is. If you stand on the pressure plate to open the stone door and launch a teleport bolt you'll be inside that room, the door behind you will close because there's nothing on the pressure plate to keep it open, and you're stuck there.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:09 pm**

Excellent spell pack. I'll be using it on my mod. Some notes on the spells I've used (well I've tried everyone of them, but some more than the others..

)

I think shield with aura is early game breaker and also lessens one of the strong points of first row caster, I'll probably stick to the old one.

It's strange that you can cast rune spell straight onto monsters. Otherwise I would love them. And the freeze rune is way overpowered with the blast radius instead of just the rune space and maybe it's duration is also a little too long for my taste.

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:58 pm**

zimberzimber wrote:There are also places where you can get stuck if you were to throw a swap/teleport bolt.
For example - In the pyramid, where the tomb of the guardians (or something like that) door puzzle is. If you stand on the pressure plate to open the stone door and launch a teleport bolt you'll be inside that room, the door behind you will close because there's nothing on the pressure plate to keep it open, and you're stuck there.

Can you tell me the ID of that door? I don't find it in the editor.

zeltak wrote:I think shield with aura is early game breaker and also lessens one of the strong points of first row caster, I'll probably stick to the old one.

Just a suggestion, if you want to remove a spell that exists in the standard assets of Grimrock 2 : instead of

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import "assets/scripts/standard_assets.lua"

use this in your mod's init.lua file:

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import "mod_assets/scripts/standard_assets.lua"

and copy the standard_assets.lua from the asset pack in your mod's scripts folder. Then quote or remove the line:

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import "assets/scripts/spells.lua"

If you want to use the old spell instead, I recommend redefining it so it can scale with willpower and equipment bonuses as the other spells do (they only scale with skills points in the old version). For the shield spell you would use this definition without the aura effect:

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{
  name = "shield",
  uiName = "Shield",
  gesture = 6,
  manaCost = 35,
  skill = "concentration",
  requirements = { "concentration", 1 },
  icon = 102,
  spellIcon = 19,
  description = "Creates a magical shield around you. The shield protects from physical damage by increasing your Protection by 25. Only duration is cumulative.\n- Cost : 35 energy\n- Duration : 40 seconds",
  onCast = function(champion, x, y, direction, elevation, skillLevel)
    playSound("generic_spell")
    local duration = spells_functions.script.getPower(40, champion, "concentration")
    spells_functions.script.addConditionValue("protective_shield", duration, champion:getOrdinal())
  end
},

zeltak wrote:It's strange that you can cast rune spell straight onto monsters. Otherwise I would love them. And the freeze rune is way overpowered with the blast radius instead of just the rune space and maybe it's duration is also a little too long for my taste.

Good point. I will propose a new version for that, so it feels more like traps and do not work as simple front burst spells. I have two ideas:
- All traps could have a range effect like the freeze rune, and trap the party in addition to monsters. This way if you cast it onto a monster in front of you you would be blinded, fall asleep, be rooted or frozen for the same duration as monsters and so the spell would be useless in this case, except for damage and slowing the fight.
- They also could have a build up time, where for example they would start at 0% power on cast and go to 100% in 10 seconds or something like that.

What do you think about that? Trap the player, build-up time or both?

Posted: **Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:10 pm**

I don't know its ID, but its on the ground level of Pyramid of Umas, bottom left corner. (Where you get the Claymore)

As for the traps - Give them activation time. Like the buildup time, but they won't go off prematurely. (aka not before they reach 100% power)

Grimrock

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