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Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:23 pm
by Isaac
kelly1111 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 11:35 am
I remeber playing a dungeon crawler where there was a sort of cirlce hallway and I didnt notice that everytime I turned a corner that I was teleported to another hallway ... and the more I turned the more options became available to travel too. This captivated me and stimulated my lust to explore more. Mind you... this only worked becouse the teleported was not noticable. In grimrock I havent achieved this... it is to me always noticable when you teleport. <--- anyone ever found a solution to this ?
I don't believe that it shouldn't be noticeable; not unless it's used an effect—one not meant to trick... but rather to enable a feature of the map; (like a hallway in Grimrock 1, that leads off the edge of the map—technically impossible in LoG1; but doable with teleporters).

It's the same with secret buttons. It is easy to make totally indistinguishable secret buttons that must be pressed to be found at all. This doesn't play very well however. It's much better to make the button obvious when looked for, but very easy to miss if unsuspected. LoG1 went so far as to make the tiniest secret button only visible when faced directly, and when seen from the right hand side of the wall; the depth of the bricks covers the button from the left hand side.
Curunir wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:48 am
...and generally respected the player's time.
Why should it concern itself with that? The player has the time to play—or they wouldn't be playing. Playing is an end unto itself, and the game should never be beholden to the player for anything other than delivering a worthy challenge. If it takes them an hour to figure their way past one room—or three, or thirteen... it makes no difference; they were playing the game, and their progress is up to them.

I get the impression that you mean that the game (the designers of it) should be concerned with ensuring that the player's have speedy progress, and that their surprises are only pleasant, amusing, and/or non-frustrating ones, but that doesn't work for me. That's like a diet of nothing but sugar—and one quickly gets sick of it. There needs to be a varying mix (including the bitter)... or it's intolerable mush.

*I am reminded of that scene somewhere in the Matrix films, where the Architect tells of their past failures... by making their virtual world a paradise—an unbelievable one that could never be accepted as realistic.

Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:02 pm
by Khollik
kelly1111 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 11:35 am
I remeber playing a dungeon crawler where there was a sort of cirlce hallway and I didnt notice that everytime I turned a corner that I was teleported to another hallway ... and the more I turned the more options became available to travel too. This captivated me and stimulated my lust to explore more. Mind you... this only worked becouse the teleported was not noticable.

Hi kelly1111, could it be Chaos Strikes Back ? :D

kelly1111 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 11:35 am
In grimrock I havent achieved this... it is to me always noticable when you teleport. <--- anyone ever found a solution to this ?
Actually I've tried something like that in a mod I'm casually working on (when I'm not struggling with other players' mods :lol: ).
I wanted to have a room working like a "haven" where you could go and rest from different locations in the dungeon, but wanted the teleportation unoticeable to reinforce the idea of a magical special room which appeared when needed. But even with the same walls and without teleportation sound and spin, there is a quick "glintch" which ruins a bit the thing.

As for the debate, I'd say that things which were acceptable a few decades ago in dungeon crawling (for instance doing one's own map) are maybe less acceptable today because we are less patient, or have less time to play or else...

Alternative way of solving this problem could be using Map:setAutomapTile() which I did in my mod. It doesn't prevent the automap but definitely screws it by putting walls everywhere.

Khollik

Re: Deactivate automap for a dungeon

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:39 am
by Halluinoid
what a great thread this is
Masterluck wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:06 pm
the automap completely destroys the experience. Wizardry was build to always fool around with the player. It mocks you and sends you around the dungeon with invisible teleporters. It also lets you step out on one side and you get to the other side.
this applies to a Custom Dungeon that I started a while ago https://www.nexusmods.com/legendofgrimrock2/mods/101 "VAST"

going on the lines that Masterluck pens (although I hadn't read his remarks then) I started a Custom Dungeon precisely on these motives, a "VAST" dungeon , but as stated the automap completely destroys the experience. I just "prayed" that the player wouldn't press TAB
I'm tempted now to go back to it and use one of the ideas in this thread to set that to rights