Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

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galeza1
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Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by galeza1 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:33 am

I have tried to get the to the secret in the top left of the Pyramid of Umas to get the Mirror Greaves. I have failed many times. The secret wall closes much too fast. It seems impossible to get to it in time after pressing the button several hallways from it. Is this a bug, or what am I doing wrong? Please help.

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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Dr.Disaster » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:56 am

There are two states you can enter the area this wall is in. It seems you just tried with the wall closing. Try to figure out how to get in with the wall opening.

galeza1
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by galeza1 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:20 am

Well, at the moment I don't even see it on my map. I know it is there because I looked at the nice maps other players have created that show the secret room. I will try and think about what you said, if there is another way to get in, it evades me at the moment. I'll put on my thinking cap. Thanks for the hint.

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Megafont
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Megafont » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:14 am

I've found a couple guides that say you have to open the door, then hit the switch in that corridor a second time to fire energy again so the gate closes and the secret door opens simultaneously. When you do it a second time, you have to run through the gate before it closes. You can hear the secret door opening, too.

The problem is that when you use the switch to fire the energy again and flip the states of the doors, it is flat out impossible to get through the gate in time. The game will not let you move left through the gate before it closes. I stand facing the switch and never rotate my view the entire time because that would waste a ton of time. I've seen a video on YouTube showing it and it was exactly what I've been doing so I know I was doing it right. It's a clip near the beginning of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Llox75bcw

But at this point, I've tried more than enough times to know this is either impossible or just downright idiotic design... Seriously, this puzzle is just painfully bad game design... And its blatantly obvious they did not play-test this. If they had they would've noticed that

A. ITS IMPOSSIBLE
B. ITS IDIOTIC DESIGN

I'm sorry, but this is just piss poor game design because it doesn't even remotely work... As soon as the gate starts closing, you're not allowed to move through it which is unrealistic and stupid...

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Sir Tawmis
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Sir Tawmis » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:29 am

Megafont wrote: I've found a couple guides that say you have to open the door, then hit the switch in that corridor a second time to fire energy again so the gate closes and the secret door opens simultaneously. When you do it a second time, you have to run through the gate before it closes. You can hear the secret door opening, too.
The problem is that when you use the switch to fire the energy again and flip the states of the doors, it is flat out impossible to get through the gate in time. The game will not let you move left through the gate before it closes. I stand facing the switch and never rotate my view the entire time because that would waste a ton of time. I've seen a video on YouTube showing it and it was exactly what I've been doing so I know I was doing it right. It's a clip near the beginning of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Llox75bcw
But at this point, I've tried more than enough times to know this is either impossible or just downright idiotic design... Seriously, this puzzle is just painfully bad game design... And its blatantly obvious they did not play-test this.
First, let me say I _completely_ understand your frustration. Time puzzles are a bane for me. (Even early on, the one where you press the button to run through the hall before the teleporter returns). So I can completely sympathize with the frustration level you're experiencing. However, clearly it is possible (as shown in that video, and others on this forum have gotten through it). I've yet to finish LOG2 (I am not even to where the video you showed, because real life has gotten in the way). But there's clearly some people who are _really_ good at the timed things; and even in that video you linked, I have no idea how that person was walking around, clicking around their inventory, non stop :lol: I can't even do that. With this game, whenever I had to look at or get something from my inventory, I stop walking and sort my things.

I'd mentioned before (on some distant thread), what I wish Almost Human would do is - when you select the play style (Easy, Medium, Hard) - the timed puzzles would also adjust. For example, if pressing a button only gave you 5 seconds to run through it on Medium, it'd give you maybe 8 to 10 seconds on easy, and maybe only 3 seconds on Hard. This way, if you're cruising through the game on Medium, and handling monsters and time puzzles; but come across either a monster or time puzzle that is giving you some problems and your frustration levels have peaked to ceasing enjoying the game; you adjust the Difficulty for that fight/time puzzle, and ideally, carry on, and adjust it back to Medium if you want, once you bypass it.

This would allow players to continue to experience the game and still find enjoyment.
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Megafont
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Megafont » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:32 am

That's a very good idea :)

But there is no excuse for anything to ever require players to pull of something right
on the edge of what is possible. That's just plain bad game design. :(

minmay
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by minmay » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:07 am

The puzzle has 0.578333... seconds of margin, +- your frame delay. That's hardly "on the edge of what is possible", you are just doing it wrong. Probably some combination of these is true:
1. your party is encumbered or has a foot injury (+0.4375 seconds delay)
2. you are pressing the button earlier than you need to, such as right before your first move instead of halfway through your first move (+0.225 seconds delay, +0.2875 if encumbered/foot injury)
3. you are using mouse movement, making movement unnecessarily hard

I have many issues with Grimrock's design, but seriously? Half a second of leniency is HUGE. You have to beat a time of 2.15s and the edge of what is possible is 1.58s. That's a margin of more than 25%.
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Megafont
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Megafont » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:14 am

Maybe a member was encumbered. I made sure none were and went back
(was still in the Pyramid anyway, just on the 2nd floor).
I did get in after three tries this time.

It just seemed totally impossible earlier.

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Isaac
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Isaac » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:59 am

Megafont wrote:But there is no excuse for anything to ever require players to pull of something right
on the edge of what is possible. That's just plain bad game design. :(
I disagree. The case is simply that whatever lay behind the timed puzzle ~is not for those that cannot manage* to reach it. The same goes for one-way forks that permanently block off areas of the map, for taking the other path; [this is not so different than three locked rooms with one key].

*Actually that goes for any puzzle at all IMO; the worst they could do is to ensure that everyone can solve every puzzle, and beat every challenge. :(
I am also greatly in favor of having games generate new password solutions for the unsolved [if feasible] in a session ~such that let's plays & walkthroughs cannot include them.

I agree that everything should be extensively tested, and that timed puzzles be verified possible on minimum spec machines ~perhaps even with the time optionally lengthened if they detect a machine that's too slow... but since that machine is below spec, it really should not be considered by the developer IMO.

I think minmay's observation is likely correct about a party member being over burdened, but I recall that that door is particularly tough. :twisted:

Grimrock [1] had a timed puzzle for an iron door that cause similar frustration among players that either did not notice their party was slowed, or were actually playing on below-spec machines, and simply could not move fast enough to beat the challenge. [Which involved catching blobs IRRC, and was impossible for a burdened party]

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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Pyramid of Umas - Timed Puzzle for Mirror Greaves

Post by Dr.Disaster » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:01 am

Isaac wrote:
Megafont wrote:I think minmay's observation is likely correct about a party member being over burdened, but I recall that that door is particularly tough. :twisted:
The only tough thing about this door is to realize how it operates.

Making unnecessary steps/turns or being over burdened prevents solving all timed puzzles. That's a lesson all LoG1 players learned rather early because there were a few timed puzzles you had to pass to continue. On the contrary LoG2 has very few timed puzzles plus they are all optional so players might lack a bit of training ;)

Nevertheless even a below spec machine can't have a problem with this door due to the tomb tileset. It requires the least system resources of all tilesets; during beta even my old way-below-spec P4/7600GT combo managed close to 50fps there in low rendering mode:

Code: Select all

Texture Resolution: high (3)
Rendering Quality:  low (1)
=== Benchmark Results ===
start      (19,29,0,0,31): 12.0 fps (83.3 ms)
twigroot   (13,29,0,0,19): 10.0 fps (100.0 ms)
river      (2,9,1,0,22): 10.0 fps (100.0 ms)
swamp      (1,13,1,0,33): 10.0 fps (100.0 ms)
hamlet     (14,0,2,0,6): 10.0 fps (100.0 ms)
mine       (2,19,1,0,16): 26.3 fps (38.0 ms)
ruins      (5,16,1,0,8): 30.0 fps (33.3 ms)
sewer      (15,16,2,0,7): 10.0 fps (99.9 ms)
tomb       (20,12,3,0,3): 49.7 fps (20.1 ms)
catacomb   (1,28,1,0,14): 15.0 fps (66.7 ms)
Since i managed to cram a GT710 into my P4 a while ago it almost meets LoG2 min specs and now i see a 30 fps average in the pyramid with max settings (it was 12 with the 7600GT) so below spec is not really an argument for failing this puzzle.

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