Feature request for Hard difficulty

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Dr.Disaster
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Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Dr.Disaster » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:01 pm

It might sound a bit strange to bring up a feature request after release but it's a rather simple one:
add/increase starvation and it's resulting penalties for Hard mode.

Right now the penalties are halved weapon damage and halted health/energy regeneration. Past that nothing happens: characters can rest for weeks and they won't die of hunger. This seems fair for Easy and perhaps even Normal but IMO in Hard there should be some added pressure to keep a food stock.

I suggest a mild periodic damage as long as the food bar is red and a damage increase once the food bar is completly blank.

We know LoG 2 will at least see one more patch so this should not be too hard and too much work to implement.

Anurias
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Anurias » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:30 pm

For the sake of those who don't enjoy the food mechanic in the game I'd suggest that a feature such as this not be included as part of the difficulty setting but instead as a checkbox option that can be applied to any difficulty.

Rya.Reisender
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Rya.Reisender » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:19 am

Don't you automatically use up more food because you need to rest a lot more often?

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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Dr.Disaster » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:44 am

Rya.Reisender wrote:Don't you automatically use up more food because you need to rest a lot more often?
Who says you need to rest more often?
With LoG's build-in health/energy regeneration - which got improved in LoG 2 - there is hardly a need to rest at all.

badhabit
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by badhabit » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:10 pm

Dr.Disaster wrote:
Rya.Reisender wrote:Don't you automatically use up more food because you need to rest a lot more often?
Who says you need to rest more often?
With LoG's build-in health/energy regeneration - which got improved in LoG 2 - there is hardly a need to rest at all.
I support this request from Dr. Disaster wholeheartly. At least in hard (or even normal) starvation should have realistic consequences. I also would like to see the removal of the "run back always to the crystals for free and easy healing" mechanic at least in hard. Either, 1x time resurrection/healing per crystal or extremely long recharge times for the crystals. In the opposite side, charged items should not draw energy at least not in easy mode on usage. The usefullness is currently is too limited.(Additionally, let these items recharge over time slowly e.g. 5x the energy drawn over 15 min from the bearer's energy)

Anurias
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Anurias » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:21 pm

badhabit wrote:I also would like to see the removal of the "run back always to the crystals for free and easy healing" mechanic at least in hard. Either, 1x time resurrection/healing per crystal or extremely long recharge times for the crystals.
This is already in the game, you just have to turn on the single use crystal option.

minmay
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by minmay » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:28 pm

I don't see how you can make the food mechanic meaningful for replays without making first plays virtually impossible, since Grimrock includes puzzles and requires heavy backtracking if you miss something. It was easy to make a genuine food clock work in Rogue due to randomization and the fact that you are supposed to lose your first games. Neither of these are present in Grimrock (or dungeon crawlers in general) to a significant degree.

Furthermore, by making this change, you would break every mod made for Grimrock 2 so far.
Grimrock 1 dungeon
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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Dr.Disaster » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:45 pm

minmay wrote:I don't see how you can make the food mechanic meaningful for replays without making first plays virtually impossible, since Grimrock includes puzzles and requires heavy backtracking if you miss something. It was easy to make a genuine food clock work in Rogue due to randomization and the fact that you are supposed to lose your first games. Neither of these are present in Grimrock (or dungeon crawlers in general) to a significant degree.
I know that there are players that seem to face this "virtual impossible" point on first plays and some of them do face the "out of food" issue. Yet we both know that in LoG 2 food is an unlimited resource. You just need to hunt for it.
minmay wrote:Furthermore, by making this change, you would break every mod made for Grimrock 2 so far.
Would it? Just today you judged all LoG2 mods made yet as "not worth playing" so i fail to see how beefing up only(!) the highest difficulty setting a bit breaks anything. When there is not enough food in a mod - be it for LoG 1 or 2 - it's not the fault of the player.

minmay
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by minmay » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:18 pm

Dr.Disaster wrote:
minmay wrote:I don't see how you can make the food mechanic meaningful for replays without making first plays virtually impossible, since Grimrock includes puzzles and requires heavy backtracking if you miss something. It was easy to make a genuine food clock work in Rogue due to randomization and the fact that you are supposed to lose your first games. Neither of these are present in Grimrock (or dungeon crawlers in general) to a significant degree.
I know that there are players that seem to face this "virtual impossible" point on first plays and some of them do face the "out of food" issue. Yet we both know that in LoG 2 food is an unlimited resource. You just need to hunt for it.
I assumed this change would include removing the regenerating food sources. Since, you know, there's no point whatsoever to it otherwise...
Dr.Disaster wrote:
minmay wrote:Furthermore, by making this change, you would break every mod made for Grimrock 2 so far.
Would it? Just today you judged all LoG2 mods made yet as "not worth playing" so i fail to see how beefing up only(!) the highest difficulty setting a bit breaks anything. When there is not enough food in a mod - be it for LoG 1 or 2 - it's not the fault of the player.
There's a big difference between a mod being bad and a mod straight up not working. I wouldn't be surprised if there is already at least one mod that relies on starvation working the way it currently does.
Grimrock 1 dungeon
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Anurias
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Re: Feature request for Hard difficulty

Post by Anurias » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:28 am

minmay wrote:I don't see how you can make the food mechanic meaningful for replays without making first plays virtually impossible, since Grimrock includes puzzles and requires heavy backtracking if you miss something.
minmay wrote:I assumed this change would include removing the regenerating food sources. Since, you know, there's no point whatsoever to it otherwise...
These comments seem a bit presumptuous. I mean, 'first plays virtually impossible'? Really? I know there are people that have trouble with the game as it is, but games like this used to be a LOT harder. Heck, the other day I started playing Wizardry 6, rolled up a party and got half of them killed in the first fight because no one could stand to be hit once at lvl 1. I just don't see how adding a damage component to starvation warrants claiming impossibility when far more difficult things have been presented in gaming that players were expected to be able to cope with just fine.

Then the 'no point whatsoever' comment... it's possible that a player would play through the game without setting up some stash where they store loads of food simply because they don't want to go grinding out the respawnable monsters just to make sure they have a backstock of food. Adding a damage penalty to starvation will make those players pay more attention to their food reserves and consider if they need to go hunting for food or not. To me that sounds like it adds something to the game which would be a point.

It might not serve a purpose that you would find beneficial or in some way appealing to your idea of what makes the game good or better, but if it's presented as an option that players can choose or decline then those that feel it would add to their game can use it and those that would rather not deal with it wouldn't have to.

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