Lack of news / Tributes

[vlzvl]

As i read, Dungeon Master was inspired by the early Ultima games, although as far i remember they were not FPS style, although Ultima Underworld was indeed influenced by Dungeon Master and was FPS.
But there were even older games following that grid-like style like Might and Magic 1 (1986) or Bard's Tale (1985) which could be safely considered as the source of all our beloved genre.

[Azel]

Yep! In fact, these games (including Dungeon Master) can be traced back to the "Epic Grandfather" of them all, Wizardry:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizardry/wizardry.htm

[vlzvl]

Yep! In fact, these games (including Dungeon Master) can be traced back to the "Epic Grandfather" of them all, Wizardry:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/wizardry/wizardry.htm

I'm in total shame forgotting Wizardry, although these days it looks more like a vector game , but nevertheless a crawler

[Dr.Disaster]

As i read, Dungeon Master was inspired by the early Ultima games, although as far i remember they were not FPS style, although Ultima Underworld was indeed influenced by Dungeon Master and was FPS.

Inside the dungeons the early Ultima's are FPS style.

[Anurias]

As i read, Dungeon Master was inspired by the early Ultima games, although as far i remember they were not FPS style, although Ultima Underworld was indeed influenced by Dungeon Master and was FPS.
But there were even older games following that grid-like style like Might and Magic 1 (1986) or Bard's Tale (1985) which could be safely considered as the source of all our beloved genre.

Ah Bard's Tale... I have the original 3 Bard's Tale games on my android tablet... if only they worked with my bluetooth keyboard then I'd be able to actually see what was going on and not have to bring up my on-screen keyboard that causes the play window to shrink down to super tiny size...

[badhabit]

[...] it pays a tribute to probably the best dungeon crawler ever, Eye of the Beholder.

Sacrilegious! This mere clone couldn't surpass the eternal king, even not in three tries!

There a few articles on the web that mention the perception of Dungeon Master players being like a religious cult.

Whether you think he's a troll or not you kind of proved him right about about your blind fanaticism.

Well, not really as DM was infact the core inspiration for LoG (starting as DM2000, over as "Escape from Dragon mountain"...for 9 years a DM clone) and looking at the core mechanics tile-based, real-time, quad-party, dungeon crawling, rune magic, non-random generated enemies but simulated AI one etc which was infact in this form innovated exactly by DM.

As for 'reality' and 'declarations'. The reality is that the creator of something is the one who determines what their creation is a tribute to, because they are the ones making it, so the decision for it to be a tribute is theirs and not some fan's decision. So the reality is the AH team stating multiple times, as has already been cited with the original wording and source for independent verification, that the game was made in the spirit of the collective works of the old school dungeon crawlers.

I'm aware what the devs were telling. And I noticed the difference between statement and reality. Despite their statement not to do a 100% DM clone/tribute anymore, LoG is still game-mechanic, esthetic, sujet etc pretty heavily DM inspired (~90%), in places "stream-lined" (dumbed down) for modern audience.

If the developers had never played DM or never even heard of it and they started from the experiences of EoB1 and the other games in the genre, listed by them or not, you would still be able to draw similarities to DM simply because much of the mechanics of the genre are the same in all games of the genre.

First they (or at least the core of AH, Petri) played it, see here.
Second: exactly, as this genre was kickstarted by DM. They were even called DM clones for a time. It's a shame that people fist mentioning EoB while it was just a clone (while a good one, I played it too). The significance of DM can't be overestimated for the genre in terms of innovation, design & polish. A good read is e.g. this or the influence on origin.

edit: stupid typo

[vlzvl]

Second: exactly, as this genre was kickstarted by DM. They were even called DM clones for a time. It's a shame that people fist mentioning EoB while it was just a clone (while a good one, I played it too). The significance of DM can't be overestimated for the genre in terms of innovation, design & polish. A good read is e.g. this.

Actually EOB1 was my first ever RPG to play, and was swallowed by it. I don't know why but in those days EOB1 was the standard definition of dungeon crawler. DM was good, was the first with reasonable graphics but it was in one way or another past news. Then came EOB2 and Lands of Lore and things got only better for the (soon) trilogy and genre in general.
Graphics were far better compared to DM and my opinion EOB & LOL combined the best graphics & CRPG atmosphere possible at the days. DM was like Wolfenstein 3D to Doom.
Of course the DM significance cant be underestimated but nowadays i can still play EOB2 but DM i find it a bit hard.
Perhaps Legend of Skullkeep but i have bad memories with it

[Anurias]

To clear up a few things;

As for 'Escape from Dragon Mountain', that is a completely different project from 2001 that was being worked on by a different team of people. Petri may have been part of that team but he was not the entire team for that project or for LoG. Anything related to Escape from Dragon Mountain is connected to that project, not LoG.

Escape from Dragon Mountain is NOT LoG. Do a bit of research on that game. I checked it out and it was being made by a different team, Petri was on that team but the rest of that team was not involved in LoG. It was a past project. According to a blog post on this site Petri was also involved in the game Max Payne 2, that project is not related to LoG either. As you can see past projects are past projects, people that worked on them learned things from them but they are NOT the same project.

As for the difference between statement and reality;

Most of the characteristics that are likely to come to mind can be traced back to characteristics that are present in DM, true. However, claiming LoG is a tribute to just that one game is the same as claiming some random modern First Person Shooter is a tribute to the original Wolfenstein 3D. They share a plethora of characteristics but there has been massive amounts of development and influences over the years that extend that to more than just that narrow claim.

"Legend of Grimrock is a dungeon crawling role playing game with an oldschool heart but a modern execution." -Taken from AH's description of the game at http://www.grimrock.net/games/
That is stating the genre of the game, a dungeon crawler in the same vein as the old school dungeon crawlers. What you are experiencing as DM inspired mechanics are things that ALL dungeon crawlers of that era and genre shared in common and was part of what defined the genre. That in no way limits the influence to a single game that wasn't even the first of its kind but only an evolution of an already existing genre that opened the market to wider range of consumers. Many of the mechanics in Dungeon Master can and have been traced to predecessors yet you aren't claiming those in DMs place when the mechanics came from them in the first place.

Lastly, whether the team of AH played DM or not doesn't matter. My comments about "If the developers had never played DM..." was a hypothetical situation not based in reality. It was presented as an illustration to show that the use of those mechanics could have come from any of the other games that they drew their inspiration from. It was not intended to be taken as 'they never played that game'.

If you want to debate an issue how about you address the facts that have been presented instead of ignoring them because they don't fit into the fantasy perception you want to portray as fact when in truth it is nothing more than opinion that contradicts fact. It appears as though your opinion is that LoG is a tribute to a single game. The fact is that the creators of LoG stated that the game was based on several games within the genre. The opinion you are apparently defending is wrong because it contradicts the facts.

[badhabit]

Second: exactly, as this genre was kickstarted by DM. They were even called DM clones for a time. It's a shame that people fist mentioning EoB while it was just a clone (while a good one, I played it too). The significance of DM can't be overestimated for the genre in terms of innovation, design & polish. A good read is e.g. this.

Actually EOB1 was my first ever RPG to play, and was swallowed by it. I don't know why but in those days EOB1 was the standard definition of dungeon crawler.

I agree, also my memory here... somehow EOB became more popular and known. Partly I credit the D&D game mechanic connection. Also, I appreciated DM not so high at these time, DM was just one of the Dungeon crawlers. My appreciation grow later when I understood the historical significance on one hand, the polish of the combination of all aspects and the high quality innovations (I still love the innvented magic system to dead... ).

Of course the DM significance cant be underestimated but nowadays i can still play EOB2 but DM i find it a bit hard.
Perhaps Legend of Skullkeep but i have bad memories with it

I agree, polish was missing, not enough innovations... and it was way too late. Still, I liked the haggling with the merchant dwarfs! (I guess I'm the only one who ever liked this aspect)

PS: slightly off-topic I noticed after my edit, this is common http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/ ... n-you.html interesting

[vlzvl]

PS: slightly off-topic I noticed after my edit, this is common http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/ ... n-you.html interesting

So "can’t underestimate" is wrong? Hard to guess that from a guy speaking greek