Beta 2.1.18

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Taem
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Taem » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:42 pm

When are some of the balance issues going to be addressed? I haven't heard a word from any dev regarding balance issues and in LoG1, I don't recall any balance changes being implemented once the game was released. I should mention this game is stellar, but other than the first time I played it for several hours, I haven't picked it back up because I'm waiting for firearms to be fixed properly as well as several obvious balance related issues. As it stands now, I cannot in good faith recommend this game as is until the balance tweaks are implemented.

DannyAIC
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by DannyAIC » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:14 pm

Really? Firearms are why you can't "in good faith" recommend this game?

:roll: :roll:

firearms totally have their use, and I can't think of one CRPG I've played where all weapons were created equal.

Grimrock 1 Unarmed and sword were markedly better than maces and axes. Armor skill close to useless.
Dragon quest 8, Axes better than clubs on yangus, Swords better than fisticuffs n the hero.
Wizardry 8 Staff and Wand better than daggers on a ninja (and most every other class)

I can go on if you'd like. But the bottom line is you're meant to put points in bad places and mess up. That's not bad game desing, that's been the design of many an RPG like this. Etrian odyssey series is an AMAZING example, although if you messed up there you could reset points for the price of a couple levels.

Taem
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Taem » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:10 am

Thanks for your attempt, using your anecdotal analogous references, to try and convince me how my opinion is flawed - it really made an impression on me :lol: .

I wrote a small tidbit here on my opinion of the game in its current state: Link; for those challenged to follow links:
Taem via the Lurker Lounge wrote:Also been playing Legend of Grimrock II. In all honestly, it's a well polished and fun dungeon crawler-type game in the same vein as the old Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder genre. There are however, several elements that turned me off to this otherwise terrific game, enough so that I haven't bothered to pick it up again until these issues are giver proper attention to. Mainly support for the new "firearm" mechanic they tossed into the game, which you'd think was a viable class and skill, but sadly is not due to lack of ammo in the game. And making an all firearm squad is a pipe dream in this game. The only way to make "special" attacks is to hold down your attack button for a time to "charge" it, however by the time it's released, you could have attacked with all four of your toons dealing twice as much damage in the process. Charged items aren't really useful for front-line fighters who dole out massive damage and have good protection, but are best used for wizards who run out of mana and need a backup item, however the caveat here is that the charged items in this game require.... more mana! Literally, everything I was trying to do in this game with my first two parties was squashed by these silly rules that weren't an issue in Legend of Grimrock I, so as of now, I cannot recommend this game until these issues are addressed, as I have stopped playing it myself. I feel that once proper attention is given to these, and other balance issues, then this game will be outstanding and deserve a place amongst some of the very best, however even great games fall due to stupid game-play crushing bugs and balance issues and this game is no exception.
I also feel Evasion is the bastard of this game and needs attention. Did I let these minor things ruin my game-playing experience? Perhaps, but more importantly, I feel the devs should address these issues for the mass, an assurance that they are aware there are balance issues and either plan on addressing them in the future, or simply don't give a shit and are more interested in pushing out GR3. The truth is, there's been a ton of complaints about balance issues here on the official forums, pages and pages, and on the Steam forums and there has been no response from the dev team whatsoever regarding what the dev team sees as short-fallings of this game that they'd like to alter in the future, or perhaps in GR3. Based on the way the dev team dealt with GR1, I don't believe there will be any balance changes, and all issues they see with GR2 they will address with GR3, but this unfortunately reeks to me of sloppy programming dogma, and this is the reason I cannot support this game at this time.

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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Dr.Disaster » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:22 am

Taem, these are your points taken from your "Balance" thread:
Taem wrote:[*]A complete reworking of the firearm system and ammo situation
[*]Chargable items should have a 0-mana cost to use
[*]Lower the cooldown on special attacks
[*]A little better evasion for dex-based front-row melee builds
[*]Spell damage scaling slightly with +Wisdom
Firearms: we already reported both the damage and ammo part during beta. While we found that the damage is actually not that far behind other ranged weapons the ammo part is IMO the real problem. My suggestion was to add a recipe to create pellets.

Items with Charges: here i agree that they should cost less energy. No necessary nothing but at least half or one third compared to now.

Cooldown on special attacks: IMO they are fine. There are already ways to reduce cooldowns inside the game; just make use of them. There is even an entire character class designed for them!

Better Evasion: somewhere here i suggested to double the value granted by the Evasion trait and up Evasion granted by each level of Dodge skill to 5. That'll raise max possible Evasion without dex potion usage from about 60 to 75. Even then it won't be as OP as it was in LoG1.

Spell damage: IMO spells are ok, some are even OP. Yet it might be nice to have other end-game spells like Meteor Storm for non-fire elements.


Regarding your Lurker Lounge post: why didn't you just post "LoG2 sucks"? It would literally have said the same as your little tidbit which tells nothing positive about the game; it's just one big bash.

minmay
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by minmay » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:32 am

Dr.Disaster wrote:Firearms: we already reported both the damage and ammo part during beta. While we found that the damage is actually not that far behind other ranged weapons the ammo part is IMO the real problem. My suggestion was to add a recipe to create pellets.
What's the point of having ammo in the game if it doesn't run out?
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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Dr.Disaster » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:10 am

minmay wrote:
Dr.Disaster wrote:Firearms: we already reported both the damage and ammo part during beta. While we found that the damage is actually not that far behind other ranged weapons the ammo part is IMO the real problem. My suggestion was to add a recipe to create pellets.
What's the point of having ammo in the game if it doesn't run out?
I'm not sure you understood the issue. During beta i did a play-thru on Hard with an all ranged party: thrower, missiles, firearms and non-fire magic. Even with me being careful with firearm use i finally ran out of ammo before reaching Orul. I had to hand my firearm user my missile user's crossbow-backup so he had something to fight with!

Like in LoG 1 you can run out of ammo for all ranged weapons during combat, be it darts, knifes, shuriken, axes, arrows or bolts. The only ranged weapon one never runs out of are rocks because they can be picked back up during combat. Once combat is over you re-collect your ammo and venture onwards. Now ammo for firearms can't be re-collected so once all it's ammo available in the game is spent the weapon class becomes useless. I have no problem with pellets&cannonballs not being re-collectable but then there has to be another way of supply. Even with an alchemy recipe firearm ammo would be far from endless since you need to have the ingredients first.

minmay
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by minmay » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:53 am

Dr.Disaster wrote:
minmay wrote:
Dr.Disaster wrote:Firearms: we already reported both the damage and ammo part during beta. While we found that the damage is actually not that far behind other ranged weapons the ammo part is IMO the real problem. My suggestion was to add a recipe to create pellets.
What's the point of having ammo in the game if it doesn't run out?
I'm not sure you understood the issue. During beta i did a play-thru on Hard with an all ranged party: thrower, missiles, firearms and non-fire magic. Even with me being careful with firearm use i finally ran out of ammo before reaching Orul.
My understanding is that you think players running out of ammo is a design problem. But players running out of ammo is literally the only game design reason for ammo to exist.
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Taem
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Taem » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:56 am

Dr.Disaster wrote:Regarding your Lurker Lounge post: why didn't you just post "LoG2 sucks"? It would literally have said the same as your little tidbit which tells nothing positive about the game; it's just one big bash.
Because I don't feel the game sucks at all; my critique is/was based solely on balance issues within the game as the title of *that* thread is, "New games I wish were worth getting...", as in, the game has very good qualities and a lot of potential, but there are some issues holding it back. In my honest opinion, the game is only a micro-step away from becoming a truly fantastic game, completely free of most problems and balance issues ready for the masses, however right now, its still feels like its in a beta. What else is there to say? I'm sure most users who've been frustrated with the same issues I have feel the exact same way towards the balance issues plaguing this otherwise fantastic game. I think most of us here can agree this game is on the verge of greatness, but isn't quite there yet. I'd like to see the devs give it a bit more polish and really let it shine before moving on to GR3, then I could change my post on the Lurker Lounge to , "GR2 - utterly amazing! A game that only comes around once in a lifetime." But not now.

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Dr.Disaster
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Dr.Disaster » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:07 am

Bottomline: it's one of two extremes for you:
"I cannot recommend this game until these issues are addressed" or "A game that only comes around once in a lifetime."

Taem
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Re: Beta 2.1.18

Post by Taem » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:09 am

Dr.Disaster wrote:Bottomline: it's one of two extremes for you:
"I cannot recommend this game until these issues are addressed" or "A game that only comes around once in a lifetime."
Alright, I see what you’re getting at. I suppose in my opinion piece, I did paint the subject as, "if these issues aren't addressed, this game is not worth purchasing". For me, it's not a matter of two extremes, but a, "is this worth my time playing", and to answer that question since my free-time is very limited, I find myself comparing current gen games to similar ones of genres past. For example, with GR2, I examined such titles as Dungeon Master 1, Ishar: Legend of Fortress, Eye of the Beholder 1, and of course Legend of Grimrock 1. Now I expect opinions will abound on this, however I felt all these games were more polished and balanced than GR2 currently is in regards to the game-play mechanics, even though none of these games were or are perfect. I won’t deny GR2 is a terrific game, but I feel it’s just not quite there yet. So, in retort of your statement, my extremes are not based on best game ever vs. piece of crap, but a game that holds up or excels against similar games in its genre vs. my free time. That is my subjective weighing hammer and the bottom line.

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