Please do something about the spiders :(

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Kthanid
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Kthanid » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:54 pm

It's continually amazing to me the types of things people will request of game developers. Comments have been made that a game is inherently different from a movie because it should be easier to replace one monster with another arbitrarily throughout. Sure, that's arguably true from a technical standpoint, but it's also ignoring the bigger problem with this request. Using spiders as the example, there's a very good reason they are included in the game: Because that's the vision and imagery the designers wanted to capture. You're basically popping into a forum to ask people who have worked for years crafting their artistic vision of their game to put in extra effort at the last possible minute to purposefully implement features that will, at best, distract from that vision (and at worst will make it laughably detrimental to the game's immersion).

Ignoring that, the people who make these requests rarely, if ever, truly appreciate the actual effort involved in making the change they're requesting, or how incredibly ludicrous of a suggestion it is to attempt to circumvent someone else's vision at the expense of their time and effort to placate what is very likely an absurdly small percentage of their potential customers. Just because a non-developer looks at something and says "wow, that should be easy to do" doesn't actually mean that it is. Even if the request is a trivial amount of work, in a case like this I can't imagine it even remotely stacks up against the much more trivial number of potential customers impacted. In the venn diagram of people who generally enjoy dungeon crawlers and people who are so severely arachnophobic that they couldn't possibly stand to play a game that contains a digital representation of a spider, the overlap would be virtually nil.

I was amazed when I saw this request pop up for the original LOG, and while I'm slightly less surprised this time, it hasn't prevented me from sitting here shaking my head reading these posts. The level of entitlement necessary to make this request of the developers is simply mind blowing to me.

My apologies if any of this seems like a personal attack on someone's phobia. I'm honestly sorry that your own irrational fears would prevent you from enjoying something simply due to a digital representation of your phobia, but it would seem to me slightly less insulting and slightly more productive to either begin planning for the process to mod this yourself or seek out the modding community directly to assist you rather than making such a request of the developers. Then again, that's just my opinion, and you're of course entitled to your own.

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Gekkibi
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Gekkibi » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:30 pm

Kthanid wrote:Comments have been made that a game is inherently different from a movie because it should be easier to replace one monster with another arbitrarily throughout. Sure, that's arguably true from a technical standpoint, but it's also ignoring the bigger problem with this request. Using spiders as the example, there's a very good reason they are included in the game: Because that's the vision and imagery the designers wanted to capture.
True, if it wouldn't be their vision then we wouldn't have this conversation. Then again the color palette is also an artistic thing, so how dare colorblinds suggest colorblind modes to games!
Kthanid wrote:You're basically popping into a forum to ask people who have worked for years crafting their artistic vision of their game to put in extra effort at the last possible minute to purposefully implement features that will, at best, distract from that vision (and at worst will make it laughably detrimental to the game's immersion).
They've known that this has been an issue since Grimrock 1. And you wouldn't lose your immersion if an optional option is added. At best it would remove a problem. You're blowing this out of proportion.
Kthanid wrote:Ignoring that, the people who make these requests rarely, if ever, truly appreciate the actual effort involved in making the change they're requesting, or how incredibly ludicrous of a suggestion it is to attempt to circumvent someone else's vision at the expense of their time and effort to placate what is very likely an absurdly small percentage of their potential customers.
That's not everything you're ignoring... Surprisingly many have arachnophobia. Look it up.
Kthanid wrote:Just because a non-developer looks at something and says "wow, that should be easy to do" doesn't actually mean that it is.
That's true. What if a developer says so..?
Kthanid wrote:Even if the request is a trivial amount of work, in a case like this I can't imagine it even remotely stacks up against the much more trivial number of potential customers impacted.
This affected One customer: http://kotaku.com/5879927/developer-mak ... rrow-click
Please ridicule him instead.
Kthanid wrote:In the venn diagram of people who generally enjoy dungeon crawlers and people who are so severely arachnophobic that they couldn't possibly stand to play a game that contains a digital representation of a spider, the overlap would be virtually nil.
And if you would have googled this you would have realized that in reality it isn't. Plus compare this to the UI arrows. There are more arachnophobes than severely handicapped players.
Kthanid wrote:I was amazed when I saw this request pop up for the original LOG, and while I'm slightly less surprised this time, it hasn't prevented me from sitting here shaking my head reading these posts. The level of entitlement necessary to make this request of the developers is simply mind blowing to me.
So I'm entitled if I say that I will not buy it until it's possible to get rid of the spiders? Wow. In real world that's called "voting with ones wallet". I'm giving the developers an incentive.
Kthanid wrote:My apologies if any of this seems like a personal attack on someone's phobia.
...Sure sounds like one, yup. Thanks for noticing it yourself.
Kthanid wrote:I'm honestly sorry that your own irrational fears would prevent you from enjoying something simply due to a digital representation of your phobia...
Phobias are never digital, they are chemical inside ones brain... Or was this yet another "it's irrational to be irrationally afraid of something that isn't real"?
Kthanid wrote:...but it would seem to me slightly less insulting and slightly more productive to either begin planning for the process to mod this yourself or seek out the modding community directly to assist you rather than making such a request of the developers
Read my previous post why it's better if the developers would make it. And even if I'm able to mod this, it wouldn't help everyone. Not now, and definitely not after 25 years.

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Kthanid
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Kthanid » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:50 am

Gekkibi wrote:True, if it wouldn't be their vision then we wouldn't have this conversation. Then again the color palette is also an artistic thing, so how dare colorblinds suggest colorblind modes to games!
Colorblindness is more prevalent than arachnophobia, and substantially more prevalent than arachnophobia extreme enough to make a digital representation of a spider in a video debilitating for a person.
Gekkibi wrote:They've known that this has been an issue since Grimrock 1.
I don't particularly see it as much of an issue. By this logic you could make an equally senseless argument that they've had an "issue" since Grimrock 1 that Hobbits aren't a playable race. Just because you want something doesn't make it an issue.
Gekkibi wrote:Surprisingly many have arachnophobia. Look it up.
I know you've enjoyed saying this repeatedly, and I will again point out that simply having arachnophobia does not mean someone has a severe enough form of this to render themselves incapable of playing a video game involving spiders. Unless you have some actual population statistics to back this up, I wish you'd stop making this claim.
Gekkibi wrote:That's true. What if a developer says so..?
Speaking as a developer, I can say without question that there is virtually no chance I would humor the extra level of effort being requested for what is likely an insignificant portion of my user base.
Gekkibi wrote:This affected One customer: http://kotaku.com/5879927/developer-mak ... rrow-click
No, this potentially affected a larger number of customers than the one person that this was focused on. Unless you have some statistics to demonstrate that the population of people with severely debilitating arachnophobia outweighs the population of people with disabilities affecting their motor control, you're not making a very compelling argument (hint: without looking it up I'm quite confident the latter group is larger).
Gekkibi wrote:There are more arachnophobes than severely handicapped players.
You have absolutely no data whatsoever to back this claim up. Also, I find it amusing that you compare the complete arachnophobic population to "severely" handicapped players, ignoring both the fact that many arachnophobes can very likely endure viewing a digital representation of a spider in a video game as well as the fact that someone does not need to be "severely handicapped" to prefer or benefit from onscreen arrows.
Gekkibi wrote:And even if I'm able to mod this, it wouldn't help everyone. Not now, and definitely not after 25 years.
I'm sorry, but I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here. How would the developers making a change to this single game impact "everyone" and how would the difference between a mod or a native inclusion of this so-called "feature" more greatly benefit people 25 years from now?

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Gekkibi
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Gekkibi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 am

Kthanid wrote:Colorblindness is more prevalent than arachnophobia, and substantially more prevalent than arachnophobia extreme enough to make a digital representation of a spider in a video debilitating for a person.
...And how often does colorblindness prevent you from playing? A lot less than arachnophobia... And you didn't even touch the fact that by wanting a colorblind mode you would want to alter the artistic vision.
Kthanid wrote:I don't particularly see it as much of an issue. By this logic you could make an equally senseless argument that they've had an "issue" since Grimrock 1 that Hobbits aren't a playable race. Just because you want something doesn't make it an issue.
It has been an issue to some. If enough players would express their concern for the lack of hobbits then maybe the developers could come up with something. But this is a poor example because... Well... I'm hoping I don't have to explain it to you. It's not what someone wants, it's what someone needs.
Kthanid wrote:I know you've enjoyed saying this repeatedly, and I will again point out that simply having arachnophobia does not mean someone has a severe enough form of this to render themselves incapable of playing a video game involving spiders. Unless you have some actual population statistics to back this up, I wish you'd stop making this claim.
Google it. There are people who need this. They're not wanting it because they want to make you a sad panda. Speaking of statistics: where's your statistics about the "absurdly small percentage of their potential customers". It swings both ways.
Kthanid wrote:Speaking as a developer, I can say without question that there is virtually no chance I would humor the extra level of effort being requested for what is likely an insignificant portion of my user base.
I guess you're not as awesome developer as they are.
Kthanid wrote:No, this potentially affected a larger number of customers than the one person that this was focused on. Unless you have some statistics to demonstrate that the population of people with severely debilitating arachnophobia outweighs the population of people with disabilities affecting their motor control, you're not making a very compelling argument (hint: without looking it up I'm quite confident the latter group is larger).
So you're technically saying there are more severely handicapped players than players who have problems with spiders? Statistics plox... One person have asked those arrows, more than one have asked a solution for the spiders. Browse the forums. There's your statistics.
Kthanid wrote: You have absolutely no data whatsoever to back this claim up. Also, I find it amusing that you compare the complete arachnophobic population to "severely" handicapped players, ignoring both the fact that many arachnophobes can very likely endure viewing a digital representation of a spider in a video game as well as the fact that someone does not need to be "severely handicapped" to prefer or benefit from onscreen arrows.
Even if an arachnophobe is able to play the game, do the spiders affect him in any way? I'm able to play Grimrock, but it was extremely unpleasant. If the spiders have a negative impact to the overall enjoyment then it is an issue.
Kthanid wrote: I'm sorry, but I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here. How would the developers making a change to this single game impact "everyone" and how would the difference between a mod or a native inclusion of this so-called "feature" more greatly benefit people 25 years from now?
If the developers would make it, it would be in the game indefinitely. If someone mods it then you would have to find the mod (and have to know what a mod means). Good luck finding it in the far future.

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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by JohnWordsworth » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:36 am

It might be time for you guys to agree to disagree. This is clearly starting to get personal and opinionated on both sides and so it might be a good idea to admit the other isn't going to agree with your opinion, grab a mug of tea and watch the awesome pre-order trailer once more!
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Asteroth » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:35 am

And how often does colorblindness prevent you from playing? A lot less than arachnophobia... And you didn't even touch the fact that by wanting a colorblind mode you would want to alter the artistic vision.
Actually both would alter the artistic vision. The island/cave having spiders in it is a part of the artistic vision just as much as the color on the walls.

Edit: Though I see that was already mentioned. So really this can be ignored.

However you should both listen to the guy above me. He speaks sense . ^
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Gekkibi
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Gekkibi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:10 am

JohnWordsworth wrote:It might be time for you guys to agree to disagree. This is clearly starting to get personal and opinionated on both sides and so it might be a good idea to admit the other isn't going to agree with your opinion...
You're right. And I do have to admit that I got heated up quite badly. I'm passionate about this topic because I know how spiders can ruin your gaming experience. Belittling the situation is the worst anyone can do.
JohnWordsworth wrote:...grab a mug of tea and watch the awesome pre-order trailer once more!
A mug of tea? I'm drinking a pan of coffee, but I will not watch the pre-order trailer because of those scary little things lurking in the shadows... :(

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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Thorham » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:20 pm

Adding accessibility features for color blindness and people who are missing a hand is not the same as catering to people's mental problems. Phobias aren't disabilities, they're psychological disorders that can be treated.

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Gekkibi
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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Gekkibi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:45 pm

Thorham wrote:Adding accessibility features for color blindness and people who are missing a hand is not the same as catering to people's mental problems. Phobias aren't disabilities, they're psychological disorders that can be treated.
Wow... Just wow...

Edit: And here's why:
Phobias can be something else than just bad childhood memories. They can be caused by genetics or by poor brain chemistry (seratonin). So I will accept your definition of "mental problems" and "psychological disorder" (and in what tone you said them) when you also say that a normal headache and especially migrane are mental problems and psychological disorders because those can happen for the same reasons.

Oh ya... Added FOV sliders because of motion sickness belongs to the same exact category because motion sickness is also "a mental problem and psychological disorder"...

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Re: Please do something about the spiders :(

Post by Leki » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:17 pm

New game, old song... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137

Removing spiders is very problematic. Imagine situation - there can be ingame puzzles based on spiders or recipes based on spider venom etc. Replacing models - I understand that the problem can by in visual, but some people have problem with spider sounds as well so you have to replace sounds as well etc. Spiders has some attributes and they are balanced for specific part of the game, so you cannot replace them easily by another monster, let me say snail, because it will disbalance the game. You have to create new monster who will take their place with all dependences etc.

As I'm sure, you know well, that the same problem was in Skyrim and it was solved by modders when they replaced spiders by bears. Developer like Bathesda wasn't able to solve/ignored this kind of requests, so there is no reason to ask AH for that - only if you wanna play troll or retard in front of comunity. AH is a small studio and although they do they best, they cannot handle all requests we have - and believe to me, solving arachnophobic players problems has lowest priority.

Short story - I'm truly sorry about your phobia(s), but atm the only and propper way is to wait until some modder(s) will do smth with that issue as it happend in LoG1.

For now I strongly believe that there is the right time to close this topic (or move it into LoG2 modding folder).
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