Opinion and advices on my new party

[SenSx]

Opinion and advices on my new party
Hello,

I'm going to have a new run on hard mode,
and I want your opinion on my new party.
This is a mix of efficiency and roleplay / my personnal tastes.
So any advices and comments are welcome, even though I might not follow them if they do not fufill my vision.
I also have some questions followed by a ? mark.

Thx !

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A ) Front row:

I) Lizard barbarian

16 Str +
12 Dex
15 Vita +
8 Will

* Skills:

- Heavy Weapon
- Accuracy or Armor ?

* Traits:

- Endure Elements
- Fast Metabolism (note sure about this one, I thought better potions were good for a class with such a large HP pool).
Maybe Agressive instead ? Or Martial Training ?

I hesitated with Fighter because I though their ability to use specials more often offered a more divertified and deeper gameplay, than the brainless autoclick of the barbarian.
That said, I'm a bit doubtfull...I'm not sure if the 50% cut cooldownon on specials + 25% less cost and fast metabolism is enough to really make use of those.
If not, it's a bad trade off in terms of stats since I'll loose oll the bonus strengh and vitality of the barb.
Besides I don't even remember if specials are that great, I don"t remember using them that much.
What's your opinion ?

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II) Rat rogue

11 Str +
17 (+2) Dex +
10 Vita
10 Will

* Skills:

- Light weapon
- Critical

* Traits:

- Agile
- Mutation

Yes I want a front line dual wield rogue.
I know they're not great but I'll stick with it for RP reasons.
I also know Dex and Evasion is not as good as it was in LoG 1, but I want one in my party.
I'll be scum saving witht he mutation traits, so lets see how high I can put that Dex stat.


B) Back row

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III) Minotaure Alchemist


20 Str +
11 Dex +
14 Vita
7 Will


* Skills:

- Throwing weapons
- Alchemy

* Traits:

- Agressive
- Head hunter


High strengh for high damage, but I wonder if low dex will be a problem ?


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* Insectoid battlemage

11 Str
8 Dex
14 Vita +
17(+2) Will +



* Skills:

- Fire
- Air or Concentration ?


* Traits:

- Quick
- Wisdom

Is chitine worth it for a back row wizard ?
I chose it on my first playhtrough i don't even know why, but I see some people giving it to their mages as well...

[Dr.Disaster]

I) Lizard barbarian

- Accuracy or Armor ?

You'll want both to hit stuff and take less damage from hits.

II) Rat rogue

Dex adds to Evasion as it did in LoG1, yet rogue gear and Dodge skill add way more and faster than Dex.
Also dual-wielding might prove counter-productive since shields adds the most to Evasion.

III) Minotaure Alchemist

High strengh for high damage, but I wonder if low dex will be a problem ?

Low Dex in LoG2 means Accuracy is needed, prolly level 3 to 4 to hit well with ranged weapons.

* Insectoid battlemage

- Fire
- Air or Concentration ?
Is chitine worth it for a back row wizard ?

Make that "Fire, Air and Concentration".
A mage in the backrow needs no armor.

[Pompidom]

Just go with whatever feels like is best. As long you're not going with 4 farmers on Hard, you'll probably be fine.


Just some observations. A lot of assumptions in your post aren't exactly in tune with reality.

1. Fighters are bad, both statwise and their special ability. Especially in combination with other low cooldown characters. You will always have a limited APM and while drawing a spell on your battlemage or charging an attack you will be unable to attack with the other characters.


90+% of your enemy encounters are just squaredances where you hit the monster with a few characters and then move away so you don't get hit.
Since you're mostly dependant on waiting for the monster to move to the next square so you can get in a few hits, you're mostly better off having hard hitting characters with long cooldowns. Since you're waiting anyways you can better charge an attack on your barbarian since you have mostly all the time in the world and limited energy anyways making the Fighter class even more worthless.

It's not about sustained DPS when cornered, it's completely about killing monsters in the least amount of squaredance moves
You can theorycraft all you want, DPS is pointless when the speed of killing is based off how fast a monster moves to the square in front of you.

You have to click less, less mistakes and a more relaxed gameplay. For difficult situations there are always frost bombs and force fields you can conjure.

2. When picking Traits, try to take the best ones that scale best long term.
Martial training for example is really bad since it doesn't even offer the effect of 1 skillpoint in accuracy.


3. The key to hard difficulty is HP, HP, HP and again HP on your frontrow. For the same reasons a Rogue on frontrow will mostly be a dead rogue. Forget armor, forget evasion. Pointless. Each point put into armor and evasion is a point wasted.
Raw HP, crit, accuracy and more damage is all you should focus on. For those sweet onehit kills.

A lizard with elemental resistance is better suited on backrow as an alchemist, as the only way backrows get hit is because of magic spells or your poor positioning skills.

I Always take 1 Minotaur Barbarian with Rage. The +10 Strength is a typing error as Rage gives a lot more Strength than + 10 at low hp. Basically it doubles your strength. Give your front row melee characters always +2 accuracy skillpoints so they can attack from the backrow and have enough accuracy to actually hit your enemies on Hard difficulty.

For example with Minotaur barbarian with headhunter and Rage, as soon he gets low hp and is enraged, I put him for the remainder of the fight on the backrow. I usually let my barbarian get hit on purpose so he gets enraged and does massive damage.

The key to hard difficulty is HP, HP, HP and again HP for when you make the occasional mistake. Forget armor, forget evasion. Pointless on Hard.

If you're getting hit too often, you're doing it wrong.


4. Savescumming for ratling mutation is impossible. The stats are predetermined as soon you start your game.

[SenSx]

Ok thx for your precious advices.

Well bye bye figther then, I'm making a barbarian.
But I reallyw ant that mellee rogue for RP reason.
That won't be my first run in hard mode anyway, I also had a lizardman rogue on the front row on my previous run.
He died a lot at the start from what I remember, but he had decent DPS.
I still want him dual wield, that's bad ass.

So what should I give my lizardman barbarian ?
Fast metabolism or agressive ?
Is agressive that good on the long term as you said ?
His dps goes from 4 - 7 to 6 - 11, it does not sound great...


As for the battlemage, he will start with fire, but should I pick air or con for his second starting skill ?
I know some items require a certain lvl of Con, but I don't remember if there are any at the start of the game.

Thx

[Dr.Disaster]

So what should I give my lizardman barbarian ?
Fast metabolism or agressive ?

"Aggressive" offers a flat 2-4 damage boost. That's a nice little boost for starters and ranged weapon users. But melee? You won't notice that little boost anymore quite soon, long before melee damage numbers go triple-digit.

As for the battlemage, he will start with fire, but should I pick air or con for his second starting skill ?

Ask yourself: do you want to use "Shock" OR "Shield" plus be able to use "Light" next?

[Pompidom]

So what should I give my lizardman barbarian ?
Fast metabolism or agressive ?
Is agressive that good on the long term as you said ?
His dps goes from 4 - 7 to 6 - 11, it does not sound great...

I never said that aggressive is a good trait.
A flat +20 HP beats most of the other traits any day. Especially on low hp characters.
Minotaur RAGE is a very good trait on a Minotaur Barbarian as it's broken and gives more strength than the description says it does.

A barbarian doesn't need elemental resistances as he has enough Health to take any punishment as I said before.
Especially when you give him +5 vit and +5 dex he will have a high fire and poison resist already. And cold/lightning never pose a serious threat either.

Put your lizardman in the back row, they are the ones that need elemental resistances.
And if you make a lizardman your dedicated mage/battlemage character he can put fast metabolism to good use drinking energy potions that refill for double the amount. I never had to drink health potions in my Hard Run. Energy potions however you will need plenty.

This also makes sure you have a good distribution of your alchemy ingredients.
etherweeds to craft energy potions
blooddrop + falcon for rage potions

If you're going fire, you might as well rush for meteor shower in case you need to quickly deal damage from a ranged position.

Eventually with Rage potions on your minotaur barbarian you can simply oneshot the endbosses.
Your Minotaur barbarian will be the powerhouse having both lots of Health and Damage.

Your Frontrow rogue however will have no HP, no armor, no damage, no evasion and simply die all the time every time he gets hit on Hard difficulty.
Minotaur Barbarian and an Insectoid knight with chitin trait and natural armor go a long way when it comes down to Frontrow Tanking when cornered, especially with Athletics leveled up. They will have the best armor + vast amounts of health in combination while maintaining a decent damage output.

Sometimes you will be put into situations where you will be cornered and the only way to survive is to freeze / cube the sides while tanking hits with your frontrow.

[Dr.Disaster]

SenSx, you asked for advice based on a mix of efficiency and roleplay / personnal taste with your party choice being Barb, dual-wield Rogue, Alchemist and Battlemage. If you want to follow Pompidom's Rage-based route, my advice on party layout is this:

Front row: Barb + Battlemage
Back row: Alchemist + Rogue

1) Barb get's beat up on purpose so his Rage can trigger. To do this he can't have much Armor/Protection because Armor/Protection will require more hits to trigger Rage. Naturally he will need as much HP as possible for this style of play, so aim for 400+ with Tough trait, max Concentration and max Vitality.
2) Give your BM all the heavy armor you can find so he can withstand melee hits while you "wait" for Rage to trigger on your Barb.
3) Your Rogue can dual-wield savely from the back-row with minimal Armor/Evasion as long as he has enough Accuracy for Reach.
4) When geared sufficiently your Alchemist can make a temporary front row replacement for your Barb if his HP go critically low.

I Always take 1 Minotaur Barbarian with Rage. The +10 Strength is a typing error as Rage gives a lot more Strength than + 10 at low hp. Basically it doubles your strength. Give your front row melee characters always +2 accuracy skillpoints so they can attack from the backrow and have enough accuracy to actually hit your enemies on Hard difficulty.

For example with Minotaur barbarian with headhunter and Rage, as soon he gets low hp and is enraged, I put him for the remainder of the fight on the backrow. I usually let my barbarian get hit on purpose so he gets enraged and does massive damage.

This advice is based on a personal style of play and matched party layout. It's true, a (near naked?) meatshield having 80+% of his HP ripped away on purpose to trigger Rage is one way to play the game. Yet you haven't told SenSx' who/what stands beside him (like a Knight or Battlemage with 100+ protection to withstand the pummeling that's not targeted at the meatshield) and who/what will take the meatshield's place in the front seat until combat is done.

[Pompidom]

SenSx, you asked for advice based on a mix of efficiency and roleplay / personnal taste with your party choice being Barb, dual-wield Rogue, Alchemist and Battlemage. If you want to follow Pompidom's Rage-based route, my advice on party layout is this:

Front row: Barb + Battlemage
Back row: Alchemist + Rogue

1) Barb get's beat up on purpose so his Rage can trigger. To do this he can't have much Armor/Protection because Armor/Protection will require more hits to trigger Rage. Naturally he will need as much HP as possible for this style of play, so aim for 400+ with Tough trait, max Concentration and max Vitality.
2) Give your BM all the heavy armor you can find so he can withstand melee hits while you "wait" for Rage to trigger on your Barb.
3) Your Rogue can dual-wield savely from the back-row with minimal Armor/Evasion as long as he has enough Accuracy for Reach.
4) When geared sufficiently your Alchemist can make a temporary front row replacement for your Barb if his HP go critically low.

I Always take 1 Minotaur Barbarian with Rage. The +10 Strength is a typing error as Rage gives a lot more Strength than + 10 at low hp. Basically it doubles your strength. Give your front row melee characters always +2 accuracy skillpoints so they can attack from the backrow and have enough accuracy to actually hit your enemies on Hard difficulty.

For example with Minotaur barbarian with headhunter and Rage, as soon he gets low hp and is enraged, I put him for the remainder of the fight on the backrow. I usually let my barbarian get hit on purpose so he gets enraged and does massive damage.

This advice is based on a personal style of play and matched party layout. It's true, a (near naked?) meatshield having 80+% of his HP ripped away on purpose to trigger Rage is one way to play the game. Yet you haven't told SenSx' who/what stands beside him (like a Knight or Battlemage with 100+ protection to withstand the pummeling that's not targeted at the meatshield) and who/what will take the meatshield's place in the front seat until combat is done.

I said in a previous post I placed an Insectoid Knight with chitin trait and natural armor treat next to a barbarian.

Everything else you typed is just gibberish and misunderstood or simply wrong.

All I'm getting at is that a dualwielding rogue on the frontrow is really bad.

On Hard you simply don't get hit by positioning/using spells and frost bombs smart/squaredancing.
At the same time you make sure you can deal damage fast enough in cases where it matters.

In the few cases you are getting hit/cornered like for example being teleported in a room surrounded by zombies you simply make sure your front row is as tanky as possible while backing up into a corner.

Offcourse the barbarian is not naked, he gets the best armor while the knight gets the 2nd best.

Low hp classes like a rogue on the front row will simply get wrecked during those instances as he will not have the skillpoints to level up armor+evasion+hp and at the same time some weapon skills.

A barbarian can simply max out 2 handed and max out Athletics and be efficient in both tanking and dealing damage with a minor amount of skillpoints. Same for the knight more or less.

[Dr.Disaster]

I said in a previous post I placed an Insectoid Knight with chitin trait and natural armor treat next to a barbarian.

Yes, you did. But that's not the setup SenSx wants to use, so how will that help him?

Offcourse the barbarian is not naked, he gets the best armor while the knight gets the 2nd best.

err .. you do know that higher protection results in higher damage reduction a.k.a. less damage taken?

No offense, you are talking a valid strat but your execution seems off to me. If you want Rage triggered - we are not talking Potions here - that Mino really has to take the damage. Real damage! 80+% of his max health to be precise i.e. from 400+ down to 80. Giving that character the best armor available won't make that happen very often and seems counterproductive. Barbs are top HP builders in LoG2. Adding the best armor makes them the toughest dudes in your party while all others have less HP and take more damage due to less Protection. This means such a Rage Barb won't get much damage and thus not enRaged for a very, very long time while the remaining party will struggle.

Low hp classes like a rogue on the front row will simply get wrecked during those instances as he will not have the skillpoints to level up armor+evasion+hp and at the same time some weapon skills.

Following your style of play this will be inevitable. Thus my advice on the party layout change.

I won't tell SenSx how to play his party or character, that's his thing. I'll only show how to set them up properly.

[Pompidom]

Mehh, just forget about rage. Enrage is about min-maxxing and simply personally a better trait than the other traits. And a helpful option to powerhouse through the early game if you don't have a lot of early Magic firepower.

On Hard difficulty monsters hit harder and faster and move more aggressive,
and a rogue on the frontrow will suffer.

Melee characters need levels and items and progress far into the game before their damage output becomes sufficient.
Magic firepower + magic utility however is a static powerhouse that makes the game a cakewalk.

If he wants to roleplay on Hard, he's free to go what he likes, but I doubt it will be a pleasant experience.

On hard you're limited on valid choices

A rogue on the frontrow is just a recipe for disaster on Hard. No damage, nor any tanking abilities.
He can always make a backrow alchemist into a dualwielding rogue.

I powerhoused through the game on Hard Ironman Single Save crystal with
frontrow:
Mino barb 2 handed chugging rage potions when needed
Insectoid battlemage tank + meteor shower spam consuming all skillpoint books/health tomes/ vitality pots
backrow:
Ratling alchemist acting as a battlemage in cold projectiles and alchemy
Lizard battlemage for Meteor shower spams