[MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Talk about creating Grimrock 1 levels and mods here. Warning: forum contains spoilers!
wagtunes
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by wagtunes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:25 am

HypnoToad wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:59 am
If you watch the authors videos, he is very very good at fighting, he can move his players around with ease during a fight, reminds me of this kid we knew years ago, he would complain that video games were not hard enough. We thought yeah right until one day at our house my son was playing Speedball on the old Amiga. This kid had a go and was actually playing with the game itself, that is he was toying with it, we hadn't seen anything like it, so what's hard to someone (like me) maybe easy to someone else.
Well, the point is, as a designer it's probably a good idea to make your game for the masses and not for the top 1%, Otherwise, people are going to get frustrated and give up.

I finally did get through this but not without cheating like hell. Ultimately, it wasn't all that satisfying but it was my only option. When you have to deal with creatures that can kill you in 4 shots and there are 6 of them, well, you do the math.

All that aside, still the most intriguing and exciting dungeon crawler I've ever played.

But I'll stick with Bloodwych. It doesn't fall too short and it's beatable.

User avatar
Isaac
Posts: 2824
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:02 pm

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by Isaac » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:45 am

wagtunes wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:25 am
Well, the point is, as a designer it's probably a good idea to make your game for the masses and not for the top 1%, Otherwise, people are going to get frustrated and give up.
Eh... that depends on the game; and whether or not it's made for the top 1%—(or top 30%). The old adage goes that you cannot please everyone, and it's partly because that in pleasing one group, you can annoy another; like with mutually exclusive gameplay, and difficulty levels.

LoG1 got a lot of flak for a certain Iron Door challenge, because a large percentage of players had quite a difficult time with it. There isn't a great solution to this ~problem?~. If you make the challenge easier, then it might become trivial for the other players; any reduction at all, actually makes it less of a challenge to them.

The Iron Door I mentioned (IRRC) is not a requirement to proceed. This is the best way to have it IMO; to have optional (more difficult) challenges for those that want them. But this doesn't help with the segment of players that expects to have access to everything in the game, yet cannot manage to pass the challenges that deliberately withhold those areas of the game. :?

wagtunes
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by wagtunes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:27 am

Isaac wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:45 am
wagtunes wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:25 am
Well, the point is, as a designer it's probably a good idea to make your game for the masses and not for the top 1%, Otherwise, people are going to get frustrated and give up.
Eh... that depends on the game; and whether or not it's made for the top 1%—(or top 30%). The old adage goes that you cannot please everyone, and it's partly because that in pleasing one group, you can annoy another; like with mutually exclusive gameplay, and difficulty levels.

LoG1 got a lot of flak for a certain Iron Door challenge, because a large percentage of players had quite a difficult time with it. There isn't a great solution to this ~problem?~. If you make the challenge easier, then it might become trivial for the other players; any reduction at all, actually makes it less of a challenge to them.

The Iron Door I mentioned (IRRC) is not a requirement to proceed. This is the best way to have it IMO; to have optional (more difficult) challenges for those that want them. But this doesn't help with the segment of players that expects to have access to everything in the game, yet cannot manage to pass the challenges that deliberately withhold those areas of the game. :?
I absolutely understand what you're saying. I've been playing these dungeon crawlers since the early 90s. Late 70s if you want to count Atari 2600's 4 Worlds.

And no, you can't please everybody. But have you played this mod? Unless you have, you can't possibly understand what I'm talking about. And it's not a question of completing everything. I haven't. There are many levels I haven't even gone to. But the skill required to finish this game is beyond my capabilities and that's WITH all my years of experience.

And yes, with the console hack, I did get through it. But it was kind of pointless.

I am now trying to finish Daedulus Of Damned Souls which, while not very difficult as far as puzzles and creatures, has an ending that must have a million possibilities to solve. I've made it down to the last level. I've killed the Cube. I have all the golden treasures. Nothing triggers. I've tried putting the treasures on alters. I'd be guessing at solving this for years at this rate. Great crawler, but this final puzzle is beyond a head scratcher.

Anyway, I'm going to open up and thread, hoping somebody has played this and can help me finish it.

wagtunes
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by wagtunes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:41 am

I double checked. DoDS I'm on level 10. Have no idea how to get to level 11. I have combed all of level 10 and there are no more stairs going down. So it must be a teleporter that you have to activate. Have no idea how.

User avatar
akroma222
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by akroma222 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:50 am

Oh dear.... Im still here!
Honestly I have not checked this thread since I last responded to you, wagtunes...
Im so sorry to have left you with never ending spawning crabs and crashing errors :oops: :|

Im going to sit down reread your messages again in the next week or two. In fact the whole thread actually
Ive decided, given people are suffering bugs while playing LoL... and are still playing the mod into this year....
I will indeed be making an update - considering carefully the points you and others have raised

Again, sincere apologies for my absence.
And thankyou to those folks who have chimed in and assisted / troubleshot for current
players like wagtunes, muchly appreciated :P
If people are asking questions and I am clearly absent....
Honestly - by all means send me an abusive / impatient PM to remind me to:
" Check my own damn mod's flaming thread already!! " :oops:
and possibly another reminder to:
" Be nicer, and less sadistic, to the players!! " :roll: :?

wagtunes
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by wagtunes » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:00 am

akroma222 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:50 am
Oh dear.... Im still here!
Honestly I have not checked this thread since I last responded to you, wagtunes...
Im so sorry to have left you with never ending spawning crabs and crashing errors :oops: :|

Im going to sit down reread your messages again in the next week or two. In fact the whole thread actually
Ive decided, given people are suffering bugs while playing LoL... and are still playing the mod into this year....
I will indeed be making an update - considering carefully the points you and others have raised

Again, sincere apologies for my absence.
And thankyou to those folks who have chimed in and assisted / troubleshot for current
players like wagtunes, muchly appreciated :P
If people are asking questions and I am clearly absent....
Honestly - by all means send me an abusive / impatient PM to remind me to:
" Check my own damn mod's flaming thread already!! " :oops:
and possibly another reminder to:
" Be nicer, and less sadistic, to the players!! " :roll: :?
Akroma, don't give it a second thought. You can't possibly be expected to constantly hang out at a forum for a game that's what, 5 years old now?

Anyway, absolutely love this mod. Yeah, it's way harder than what I'm capable of handling, especially with the speed puzzles. At my age, the hands just don't move that well anymore. But the work you put into this is off the charts amazing. I actually started playing it again with a party that's like level 52. Don't ask how I got that high. Blame the guy who made Bloodwych. That opening pretty much allows you to max out your party if you have the patience. But for mods like yours, it's irrelevant. Max parties don't help with puzzles. Only combat which isn't really that difficult anyway as I've gotten through these mods with brand new parties. Yours is just a little bit special. lol.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this.

User avatar
akroma222
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by akroma222 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:48 am

wagtunes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:00 am
Akroma, don't give it a second thought. You can't possibly be expected to constantly hang out at a forum for a game that's what, 5 years old now?

Anyway, absolutely love this mod. Yeah, it's way harder than what I'm capable of handling, especially with the speed puzzles. At my age, the hands just don't move that well anymore. But the work you put into this is off the charts amazing. I actually started playing it again with a party that's like level 52. Don't ask how I got that high. Blame the guy who made Bloodwych. That opening pretty much allows you to max out your party if you have the patience. But for mods like yours, it's irrelevant. Max parties don't help with puzzles. Only combat which isn't really that difficult anyway as I've gotten through these mods with brand new parties. Yours is just a little bit special. lol.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this.
Well the silly thing is, Im like part of the furniture in the grimrock2 forums...
so Ive only been in the room next door so to speak, weirdly I never seem to get notifications from this thread
(I got a notification that you had replied.... Im not sure why that is)

Ahhhh for sure, the speed puzzles are ridiculously tight on timing - and honestly hadnt thought of catering to
issues such as colour blindness, puzzle hints that are contextually / culturally derived and as you
have mentioned - slight declines player (not champion) dexterity due to years of expert dungeoning.
These are rookie errors. I hadnt considered colour blindness until minmay mentioned his puzzles do not
discriminate against players with said condition.

** If you do another playthrough, wait till Ive at least fixed the issues that you and others have found
Some can be fixed with console commands, but by no means could I expect people to go into the dungeon file in
editor and sift through endless scripts connectors etc to find what needs doing. I might take the file down
for mainteneance for a month and clean it all up

Putting the work in was a pleasure. And I actually havent really stopped (apart from my PC recently being
stolen in a break n enter). I dare say Ill be modding Grimrock for a fair while
My log2 mod is/was titled Legacy of Lies and I have recently posted screen shots of some new Gui menu
features .... viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12983&p=118111&hil ... cy#p118111

I will also be posting a teaser video of a custom RunePanel Ive nearly completed..... (here's a pic) .....
SpoilerShow
Image
Akroma

wagtunes
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:04 pm

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by wagtunes » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:38 pm

akroma222 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:48 am
wagtunes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:00 am
Akroma, don't give it a second thought. You can't possibly be expected to constantly hang out at a forum for a game that's what, 5 years old now?

Anyway, absolutely love this mod. Yeah, it's way harder than what I'm capable of handling, especially with the speed puzzles. At my age, the hands just don't move that well anymore. But the work you put into this is off the charts amazing. I actually started playing it again with a party that's like level 52. Don't ask how I got that high. Blame the guy who made Bloodwych. That opening pretty much allows you to max out your party if you have the patience. But for mods like yours, it's irrelevant. Max parties don't help with puzzles. Only combat which isn't really that difficult anyway as I've gotten through these mods with brand new parties. Yours is just a little bit special. lol.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this.
Well the silly thing is, Im like part of the furniture in the grimrock2 forums...
so Ive only been in the room next door so to speak, weirdly I never seem to get notifications from this thread
(I got a notification that you had replied.... Im not sure why that is)

Ahhhh for sure, the speed puzzles are ridiculously tight on timing - and honestly hadnt thought of catering to
issues such as colour blindness, puzzle hints that are contextually / culturally derived and as you
have mentioned - slight declines player (not champion) dexterity due to years of expert dungeoning.
These are rookie errors. I hadnt considered colour blindness until minmay mentioned his puzzles do not
discriminate against players with said condition.

** If you do another playthrough, wait till Ive at least fixed the issues that you and others have found
Some can be fixed with console commands, but by no means could I expect people to go into the dungeon file in
editor and sift through endless scripts connectors etc to find what needs doing. I might take the file down
for mainteneance for a month and clean it all up

Putting the work in was a pleasure. And I actually havent really stopped (apart from my PC recently being
stolen in a break n enter). I dare say Ill be modding Grimrock for a fair while
My log2 mod is/was titled Legacy of Lies and I have recently posted screen shots of some new Gui menu
features .... viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12983&p=118111&hil ... cy#p118111

I will also be posting a teaser video of a custom RunePanel Ive nearly completed..... (here's a pic) .....
SpoilerShow
Image
Akroma
Well, if you do decide to work on this and fix the "bugs", so to speak, don't forget that one level (forget which one) with the two doors which require keys. If you open the one door first (can't remember which one) there is no way to gain access to the key for the other door. I think you have to open the left door first and then the right.

The good thing is that somewhere in this thread I've detailed exactly what the problem is.

But I will take your suggestion. I will put this one aside until you're able to get to it.

Zo Kath Ra
Posts: 726
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:57 am
Location: Germany

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by Zo Kath Ra » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:13 pm

akroma222 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:48 am
I will also be posting a teaser video of a custom RunePanel Ive nearly completed..... (here's a pic) .....
SpoilerShow
Image
Since you have a custom rune panel, are you going to let the player "draw" a spell gesture multiple times?

Example: Fireball
- draw once = 1236
- draw twice = 1236321
- draw thrice = 1236321236

User avatar
akroma222
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am

Re: [MOD] LABYRINTH OF LIES - v3.6 Release

Post by akroma222 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:49 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:38 pm
Well, if you do decide to work on this and fix the "bugs", so to speak, don't forget that one level (forget which one) with the two doors which require keys. If you open the one door first (can't remember which one) there is no way to gain access to the key for the other door. I think you have to open the left door first and then the right.

The good thing is that somewhere in this thread I've detailed exactly what the problem is.

But I will take your suggestion. I will put this one aside until you're able to get to it.
I remember now! :o :oops: and I remember not having done anything about it, my apologies sir
Yes, Palace & Palace Dungeon 2 level maze, uggardians, slimes teleporters and timed secrets (Eww!)
That is first thing on the list ;)
Zo Kath Ra wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:13 pm
Since you have a custom rune panel, are you going to let the player "draw" a spell gesture multiple times?

Example: Fireball
- draw once = 1236
- draw twice = 1236321
- draw thrice = 1236321236
Zo Kath Ra, I am really not sure what you mean .... ?
Ive never heard of this being done... is this a feature elsewhere in a another mod?
If so... tell me more hahah interesting!

Sounds like youre thinking log2 style, though (click hold and draw)
This runepanel is based off the log1 runepanel (click on each rune button - no hold or draw)
There are a few different features, but Ill elaborate fully v soon (going to video it tonight)
Admittedly, scripting click hold draw Gui horrified me a bit......
so playing it safe w a system thats simple to script and manage

Post Reply